extreme stair scumming

[ewert]

Stealing a thread, but sometimes game design trumps game realisms ...

People talk of teleporting being too dangerous. Well, looking for pits/vaults in endgame usually means for me that I teleport and detect a few times after entering level. Sure, there is a chance for death. But it's fast. In real time as well as in gametime. With speeds of +30 and on, 2000 turns is eons.

And bored players like me would probably just make a macro to rest 2000 turns worth of player turns to get the feeling ...

I understand the opposition for having instant level feedback, but it is only "danger" feedback, not "cool items here". Danger and cool items do go hand in hand often of course. For me, game design and avoiding annoyance and tedium trumps realisms in this matter.

[dos350]

hoo ~ i do that kind of thing too ewert, im currently stairscumming with he warrior hoodover xiv, doing well// only dlvl 18 but i have some good things from floor lol! anyway godotimes~ ill probably stop stairscumming so vigorously when i get rpoison~ eek if i last that long!

[relic]

I don't think I have ever stair-scummed. Not because of any moral reasons, I just accept every level as it is. Of course, I mostly play the frog_knows version still, that don't have preserve artifacts, which makes the player a bit weary of skipping levels indiscriminately.

Anyway, I thought that the loss of level feelings was introduced to discourage stair scumming, but evidently it doesn't.

[Magnate]

Anyway, I thought that the loss of level feelings was introduced to discourage stair scumming, but evidently it doesn't.

It doesn't, because level feelings are almost useless and not a great loss. Even if they were made significantly more useful, I doubt that their loss would reduce stair-scumming by much.

[dos350]

i do miss level feelings but is worth it, im still on same char and i just found aruvdi and cambelego on floor of dlvl 24 or so, eek~ anyway goodtimes~

edit~ whoops one wasnt actually on floor, but was near stair monster!

[cinereaste]

This is good, but I think Jeff's solution in NPP is even better: rather than a fixed number of turns, you have to reveal a certain number of special squares to trigger a feeling for the current level. This forces exploration and happens regardless of speed. The special squares are completely indistinguishable from normal squares, and are assigned randomly at level generation.

Ooh, that's clever. I like that approach. Has there been any talk of incorporating it into vanilla? The current approach, as Dean mentioned, makes no sense thematically.

[Magnate]

Ooh, that's clever. I like that approach. Has there been any talk of incorporating it into vanilla? The current approach, as Dean mentioned, makes no sense thematically.

d_m and I just agreed that we'd like to borrow this solution, and I added a note to ticket #50 to this effect.

[dos350]

this is result of my poor hoodover xiv~


> You feel much better.
> You are no longer confused.
> You are no longer poisoned.
> You have a Potion of Cure Critical Wounds (d).
> The Half-troll misses you.
> The Half-troll claws you.
> The Half-troll misses you.
> The Half-troll bites you.
> The Purple worm hits you.
> The Purple worm misses you.
> The Great Ice Wyrm breathes frost.
> The Metallic Red Potion shatters!
> The Half-troll dies.
> The Purple worm dies.
> You die.


~~~~~! ekkkkk, was a greater vault around dlvl 30, ive never seen greater vault with doors before??? anyway i go inside it and greate ice wyrm take me out, i thought it might be danger lol~ now i know of that one... anyway~! i still support stair scum, was another good char lost~ hoo! am still wanting good run from scum but that my best so far of about 14 attempts

[ewert]

I'd just like to point out, that whereas that approach is better than the current "time on previous level", or a plain "time on this level", overall IMHO the level feelings are just mostly useless if they are delayed much at all, which this system will also do. Talking from an experienced fast real-time and little tolerance for tedium or boring levels playing point of view of course ...

PS. Danger != tedium. Items lying on the ground unguarded == boring, though not so tedious maybe.

[Magnate]

I'd just like to point out, that whereas that approach is better than the current "time on previous level", or a plain "time on this level", overall IMHO the level feelings are just mostly useless if they are delayed much at all, which this system will also do. Talking from an experienced fast real-time and little tolerance for tedium or boring levels playing point of view of course ...

PS. Danger != tedium. Items lying on the ground unguarded == boring, though not so tedious maybe.

Well, I would strongly argue against instant feelings, as I think they should represent a conclusion reached about the current level from lots of tell-tale clues about monster detritus etc. etc. (as so flavourfully described in variants like Un). The only reason I don't think instant feelings are a problem at the moment is because they're meaningless. Once the algorithm is fixed so that a feeling is useful, I think it's essential that they are delayed.

From your descriptions of you play style it is clear that you and I have completely different definitions of boring, so I doubt we will agree on this issue.

[ewert]

That's the beauty of game "realism" though, I can rationalize it for me that the character has a sixth sense for dangerous stuff.

"The White Wizard approaches" ... Saw nothing, heard nothing, omg Aragorn has sixth sense or ESP? Or Legolas ... whoever it was ...

And yeah, I just like to clear pits/vaults and kill stuff, moving around is boring for me.

[Derakon]

Pits and vaults are the icing, not the cake. They're interesting occasional challenges, but you can definitely have too much of them, especially since they tend to be susceptible to / require degenerate tactics (e.g. for pits, kiting off single enemies and dealing with them one at a time).

[Dean Anderson]

I'd just like to point out, that whereas that approach is better than the current "time on previous level", or a plain "time on this level", overall IMHO the level feelings are just mostly useless if they are delayed much at all, which this system will also do.

I wouldn't want to see a huge delay before getting a feeling, whether done as a time-on-level delay or a percentage-of-level-explored delay.

I reckon exploring 1-2 rooms or having 1-2 fights (plus rests) would be about right. My fixed delay of 2000 turns (200 moves at normal speed) could maybe be reduced a bit but seems to be in the right ball park.

[Estie]

On the topic of level "feelings": dont tell the player "You feel good." Give him whatever information you deem should be given, wrap it in riddles if you like, but let him decide for himself if he likes it or not. "You feel good" is bad dungeon master style.

[Adley]

"You feel good" is bad dungeon master style.

"This place feels murderous! Premonitions of Death assail you!"