extreme stair scumming

[dos350]

hi ~ im new to angband, ive been playing for a few months - i havnt won yet.. anyway, on my last char i started a new strategy hoo~ scum stairs til another down stair spawns or til i land in room with treasure or i detect good treasure..

i didnt have esp or any monster dtect in that run, and i was slain by ~ bjorn the shapechanger (EEK) i land in room full of ork, i start wiping them out, to west is bjorn.. i have no escapes and couldnt make it back to stairs, and wasnt strong to fight him...

anyway im gonna start again , using this strat of scumming?

is it wrong?

or is it the pro leet thing to do?

[buzzkill]

Is it wrong?

Let me answer that question with another question?
Do you think that it's wrong?

The sad fact is, Angband is very exploitable (and IMO there's no real motivitation on the part of any maintainer to patch these exploits). Some people shy away from these exploits, some people embrace them in whole or in part. What I would call cheating some players have no problem with. Unless you playing a competition character, you can do pretty much anything you want. That said, stair scumming is one of the most obvious, easy, cheesy exploits. So what it really comes down to is... Do you think that it is wrong? Because really, the RNG doesn't care, and you are the only other party involved.

[bulian]

My own recent experience is that this sort of game play is much less fun, so I wouldn't recommend it. Also, its probable that you end up with a weaker character this way than an organically grown one, as you will undoubtedly kill fewer monsters per dungeon level, meaning your CL may be lower than if you had followed a "normal" progression when you start fighting tough enemies.

The intent of my posts/games is to satisfy a question I came up with in an empirical manner more than anything else.

The sad fact is, Angband is very exploitable (and IMO there's no real motivitation on the part of any maintainer to patch these exploits)

I agree with all of Buzzkill's statements, though I'm curious why the auto-scumming option was removed in previous versions.

[dos350]

well it make me feel dirty, but quite the contrary bulian ~~ i found i got a better char quicker and i was deeper than usual for my clvl..

maybe people no understand

when i say extreme stair scumming i mean extreme, i go up down very fast alot til i find goodstuff~ anyway i try again now, i think it just might be realdeal

[buzzkill]

maybe people no understand

Oh no, we understand. {channels The Matrix} The problem is that you have not asked the right question.

Is it cheating to peek at the cards when you're playing solitaire?

What, no eek in that post? You feeling OK? This must really be troubling you.

[dos350]

hoo! is deep dilemma~ well if you are understanding i am guessing is wat you doing also yes?, eek!

... i start now i have be distract by reading of stair scumming theory~!

edit~

im not so much concerned about the is it wrong part lol, eek~

i am mainly wondering if it is actually good thing to be doing, after 1 char at it i think it is~ that is main ??? eee

[buzzkill]

My last 2 cents. I've tried to beat around the bush as best I could, so here are some disorganized thoughts posted in no particular order.

What do you want? Do you want someone to tell you that that extreme stair scumming is a time tested and honorable practice and that no one will think less of you for it?

You say "it wrong" and "make me feel dirty", so why do you do it?

Don't stair scum. You're not doing yourself any favors in the long run. OTOH if you want to do it, then certainly go ahead and do it and don't worry about it.

You'll learn better survival techniques by not employing questionable ~eeek such as stair scumming, and it's all about survival because if you survive long enough you will win.

I'll suggest to you that you try to move in the opposite direction. Play with disconnected stairs. You may find it very frustrating at first, ~hoo if you enjoy stair scumming, and you may die quite a bit more than you're accustomed to, but that's normal and in the end it will make you a better player.

You're only playing against yourself. If stair scumming doesn't bother you then go ahead and do it, but I doubt you'll you'll savor your victory, providing that you achieve one, as much as if you hadn't.

Is it cheating? That's for you to decide on a personal level. Calling any particular practice "cheating" is generally ill-received 'round here and doesn't do anyone any good.

[dos350]

hoo i dont think is cheating is just a bit cheap or something, anyway ive died a lot of times stair scumming just now, but i still think its good~ im not tryin to fully stair scum the whole way eek~ i just find that you get things quicker in earlygame!

[Magnate]

hoo i dont think is cheating is just a bit cheap or something, anyway ive died a lot of times stair scumming just now, but i still think its good~ im not tryin to fully stair scum the whole way eek~ i just find that you get things quicker in earlygame!

As buzzkill said, Angband tends towards self-policing, rather than having the code police your play. That said, there is a specific option "don't generate connected stairs" which is designed solely to prevent stair-scumming, for those of us who don't like it but might otherwise be tempted.

[dos350]

eek~ no connected stairs is too hardcore for me

[LostTemplar]

Stair scumming reduce turncount but is somewhat boring. I normally stairscum for pits and uniques in my not ironman games once I have ESP.

[ewert]

Stair scumming reduce turncount but is somewhat boring. I normally stairscum for pits and uniques in my not ironman games once I have ESP.

You would love my level feeling changes, it only tells you if there are pits or uniques on the level and nothing else. And it is instant.

For dos:

I think you yourself said it best. It feels cheap. I did it a lot before I made the level feeling changes for me. Now I just stairscum for an interesting level, I still have to explore to find it, but atleast I don't have to explore boring levels.

[dos350]

eek~ im still at it, it goes ok.. last char i detected an intense thing ( must have been a vault or something.. i never got close enough) i can only see treasure... anyway there was hounds all outside~ after bein smacked alot and teleing from freaks i found that i had no more recalls ~ eek ( dlvl like 32) anyway i raged at the vault thing or watever it was and was slain by the ogre chieftan i ran from at start of lvl ~

i think stair scummin is good~ im gonna keep tryin for a bit.. each death ive had since the start of my scum fest that has been lvl 20 + has been a decent char lost in imo unlucky ways.. i am wanting a good run from scum~ hoo!

[Dean Anderson]

You would love my level feeling changes, it only tells you if there are pits or uniques on the level and nothing else. And it is instant.

I took the opposite approach.

I make the feeling only appear after you've been on the current level for 2000 turns (each turn is a tenth of a move, at normal speed), but it will always appear, without the requirement to have been on the previous level for at least a certain number of turns.

That still discourages stair scumming - because you'll be leaving each level before you've had chance to get a feel for it - but means that if you enter a level in a nasty situation (with OOD monsters or uniques), you don't get penalised for chickening out and dashing back up the stairs again.

I also think it's more realistic to get a feeling for the level after you've been on it for a while rather than after you've had a good look at a different level.

[Magnate]

I took the opposite approach.

I make the feeling only appear after you've been on the current level for 2000 turns (each turn is a tenth of a move, at normal speed), but it will always appear, without the requirement to have been on the previous level for at least a certain number of turns.

That still discourages stair scumming - because you'll be leaving each level before you've had chance to get a feel for it - but means that if you enter a level in a nasty situation (with OOD monsters or uniques), you don't get penalised for chickening out and dashing back up the stairs again.

I also think it's more realistic to get a feeling for the level after you've been on it for a while rather than after you've had a good look at a different level.

This is good, but I think Jeff's solution in NPP is even better: rather than a fixed number of turns, you have to reveal a certain number of special squares to trigger a feeling for the current level. This forces exploration and happens regardless of speed. The special squares are completely indistinguishable from normal squares, and are assigned randomly at level generation.