Expanding on Ego items

[Lord Fell]

Previously, when I was active on the rec.games.roguelike.angband.something.etc. forums, and this was quite some time ago, there was a bit of a moment to randomize ego items. Mostly, I believe that an item made a roll for "goodness" and get (for example) Slay Orc. Another roll for "greatness" might elevate the same item to *Slay Orc* additional rolls for greatness might well have produced a weapon of Slay Orc which was +2 to Strength, Intelligence, Searching, Resist Fire and Sustain Charisma.

Talk about Random Artifacts brought this to mind. I think that a similar system where ego items that have more than one power could have random powers might make for a more dynamic game, and also allow for lower-level ego items to fill gaps in gear deeper into the dungeon. Right now, if I'm playing a Warrior, that *Slay Animal* weapon is probably going straight to the shop for a quick sale, because I just don't want or need the bonus to Int.

More powerful ego items, such as a Defender should have certain attributes that they ALWAYS are (A Defender should always have a bonus to AC),but what about a Defender that is also Cold Branded?

I would also like to see more ego items that Activate. This could be something that's appropriate to the item type (A Holy Avenger that Activates for Bless, or Remove Curse) or somewhat more random (A weapon of Gondolin that activates for Stone to Mud).

Probably, more Ego flags would need to be introduced to the game, and tables for ego item powers to be generated from. This would also (likely) be a lot of work, although those same tables might be usable for Random Artifact generation as well.

[Nomad]

I would like to see more randomized egos, because I think it does cut down on whole categories being relegated to squelch or sell without any need to even look at them. The ones with a random factor like an ability or higher resistance retain their interest so much longer.

I had a look at ego_items.txt to see if there was a way to do something like this simply, but it looks like it would need a major redesign. Maybe the way to do it would be to have flags for 'random slay', 'random stat boost', 'random ability', 'random base resistance', 'random higher resistance', and then these could be combined in different ways on different categories of egos. So instead of, say, having eight separate defined *slay* weapons, you could have one base-type Weapon of *Slaying* flagged with random slay + random stat boost + random ability. (Or slight variations with slay + stat + higher resistance, slay + stat + sustain, etc.)

[Nick]

You both should play FAangband. Just sayin'

[Magnate]

I would like to see more randomized egos, because I think it does cut down on whole categories being relegated to squelch or sell without any need to even look at them. The ones with a random factor like an ability or higher resistance retain their interest so much longer.

I had a look at ego_items.txt to see if there was a way to do something like this simply, but it looks like it would need a major redesign. Maybe the way to do it would be to have flags for 'random slay', 'random stat boost', 'random ability', 'random base resistance', 'random higher resistance', and then these could be combined in different ways on different categories of egos. So instead of, say, having eight separate defined *slay* weapons, you could have one base-type Weapon of *Slaying* flagged with random slay + random stat boost + random ability. (Or slight variations with slay + stat + higher resistance, slay + stat + sustain, etc.)

This idea has been around for a while and is, I believe, implemented in some variants. (Maybe FA, not sure .....)

I quite like it, and it would be easy enough to do with the randart code. Essentially we'd adapt do_randart so that it could generate non-unique objects rather than artifacts, and use a target power rating for the degree of "goodness".

What's quite hard is to envisage the relationship between "random" ego items and ego_item.txt ... would we do away with the latter altogether? Or use it for a fixed proportion of "great" drops? Or what?

[will_asher]

DaJAngband does something like this also. In V, certain egos can have one random resist, a random sustain, or a random power. In DJA, egos can be set to have 1-2 random low resists, 1-3 random high resists, 1-2 random sustains, 1-2 random powers, 1-2 random slays, a random brand, 1-2 random drawbacks, and a random race-specific ESP (or be set to have race-specific ESP matching one of its slays). Using this, there are pseudo-randarts which are really egos with a bunch of random stuff.
I plan to implement random activations at some point as well.

[fizzix]

as people have noted in the past when this has come up. Randomized egos just wind up being an alternate set of weak randarts. If you want randarts, you play with randarts.

That isn't to say that some more randomness can't be added to egos. Timo's suggestion to move rconf, rblind, and possibly rstun to abilities instead of resistances will actually help this without any further changes to ego item generation. Adding a chance for a random ability, resistance or stat to branded weapons seems ok. Furthermore, having multiple pvals will also help with this. However, when you start getting to the DaJ weapons of randomness, I don't see any difference between that and a randart.

Multiple pvals are really the make or break point for any of this. Fractional blows was the previous most-needed item. Once that makes it in, I think multiple pvals comes next.

[Lord Fell]

Nick: I could give FAangband a try. I should give you fair warning though; if I like it enough to make it the version I play, I'd still be unloading ideas on you.

I think what I had in mind for Random Egos, was a system where, say, a Holy Avenger is rolled up... it would check for powers thusly:

Holy Avenger
Commonly: Slays Evil, Slay Undead, Blessed, Increase Wisdom, Increase Constitution, See Invisible, Sustain Wisdom, Hold Life
Uncommonly: Slay Demon, Slay Dragon, Increase Strength, Increase Charisma, Sustain Constitution, Sustain Strength, Sustain Charisma, Slow Digestion, Resist Fear, Activates for Effect
Rarely: Slay Giants, Cold Brand, Resist Chaos, Speed

So, if Common abilities for a Holy Avenger were generated at about 75%, then any given HA would typically have 6/8 of the powers I've listed. Also (but unlikely) it may have 0/8, or 8/8 powers. Basically though, while no two Holy Avengers would be identical, they would generally have a "thematically appropriate" group of powers.

[Nick]

So, if Common abilities for a Holy Avenger were generated at about 75%, then any given HA would typically have 6/8 of the powers I've listed. Also (but unlikely) it may have 0/8, or 8/8 powers. Basically though, while no two Holy Avengers would be identical, they would generally have a "thematically appropriate" group of powers.

I like this idea. Egos in FA have this to some extent (principally with resists and curses); rings and amulets have it to a much greater extent (so they are almost mini-randarts).

[stabbo]

Nick: I could give FAangband a try. I should give you fair warning though; if I like it enough to make it the version I play, I'd still be unloading ideas on you.

I think what I had in mind for Random Egos, was a system where, say, a Holy Avenger is rolled up... it would check for powers thusly:

Holy Avenger
Commonly: Slays Evil, Slay Undead, Blessed, Increase Wisdom, Increase Constitution, See Invisible, Sustain Wisdom, Hold Life
Uncommonly: Slay Demon, Slay Dragon, Increase Strength, Increase Charisma, Sustain Constitution, Sustain Strength, Sustain Charisma, Slow Digestion, Resist Fear, Activates for Effect
Rarely: Slay Giants, Cold Brand, Resist Chaos, Speed

So, if Common abilities for a Holy Avenger were generated at about 75%, then any given HA would typically have 6/8 of the powers I've listed. Also (but unlikely) it may have 0/8, or 8/8 powers. Basically though, while no two Holy Avengers would be identical, they would generally have a "thematically appropriate" group of powers.

I think for certain items you'd have guarentee a power of some kind. I'd find it odd to pick up a Holy Avenger that did nothing.

[TJS]

I really like the idea of randomised ego equipment. It makes finding one a bit more exciting, which they currently aren't at all after you've already found a couple. Having them more likely to be more powerful the deeper you are would be fun.

I also like the idea of a chance of egos stacking so you could have a Holy Avenger Defender of *Slay Demon* if you were lucky. There are a few that can stack already like DSM or BoC.

Mind you I'm slightly struggling to see what would be the main difference between egos and random artifacts in that case.

[Estie]

Ive been thinking about this for a long time. The difference between randart and random ego is that randarts make individual items while random ego would affect the whole class. If in one game the first HA dagger you find slays demons, then all HA will slay demons.

The problem that I see is that I definitely want to keep the theme flavour of the egos. A defender does just that - defend - while a weapon of westernesse brings Tolkien lore to mind.

Maybe this would be good:

1. Low egos remain fixed. "Slay orc" should slay orc and not (much) else. *Slay orc* has dex (iirc)...while this could be randomized, I dont see much point. "Blessed" already has a random component and is fine.

2. The high egos are themed and it is very hard to find an algorithm that makes themed and balanced combinations from the given flag pool. So rather, just make a list of a few fitting combinations manually and have the game pick one of them at random. For example:

HA #1: current
HA #2: random slay of (evil, undead, demon*), high enchantment, +(1-4) wis, blessed
HA #3: increased dice, +(1-4)wis, blessed
HA #4: fire branded, +(1-4)str, dex, wis, blessed

*this would be rolled for each individual HA weapon

At game creation, the game picks one of the list at random and in that game all HA weapons have the listed properties.

Similar lists could be made for defender, westernesse, gondolin, fury, haradrim, lothlorien, elvenkind, dwarven, permanence, of aman, of trickery, of weaponmastery, of devotion, of the magi, of lordliness, of serenity, of might...did I miss any ? I have no idea how much work it would be to implement this.

[EpicMan]

I'm not sure the idea is for random egos to be the same for all instances of the same ego, i.e. all holy avengers this game have these properties. I think he is suggesting that each individual item with an ego brand have pseudo-random properties.

The main difference between random egos and random artifacts is then that (A) artifacts are usually more powerful and (B) indestructible. Which is more than enough difference; in the non-roguelike sense of the word a *Defender* halberd is an artifact too.

Of course, if you go that route why not combine the two routines (making ego items and making artifacts) and if we generate a particularly powerful item make it an artifact.

[Estie]

I'm not sure the idea is for random egos to be the same for all instances of the same ego, i.e. all holy avengers this game have these properties. I think he is suggesting that each individual item with an ego brand have pseudo-random properties.

The main difference between random egos and random artifacts is then that (A) artifacts are usually more powerful and (B) indestructible. Which is more than enough difference; in the non-roguelike sense of the word a *Defender* halberd is an artifact too.

Of course, if you go that route why not combine the two routines (making ego items and making artifacts) and if we generate a particularly powerful item make it an artifact.

That makes no sense. Randomizing each ego item individually just turns ego-items into destructible artifacts, in effect removing the class property. Certainly that isnt desired ?

[bio_hazard]

I liked the ToME feature where *slay* would give esp for that type of monster. That would make at least some of the items fairly useful at least through the mid game.

[Magnate]

as people have noted in the past when this has come up. Randomized egos just wind up being an alternate set of weak randarts. If you want randarts, you play with randarts.

That isn't to say that some more randomness can't be added to egos. Timo's suggestion to move rconf, rblind, and possibly rstun to abilities instead of resistances will actually help this without any further changes to ego item generation. Adding a chance for a random ability, resistance or stat to branded weapons seems ok. Furthermore, having multiple pvals will also help with this. However, when you start getting to the DaJ weapons of randomness, I don't see any difference between that and a randart.

Multiple pvals are really the make or break point for any of this. Fractional blows was the previous most-needed item. Once that makes it in, I think multiple pvals comes next.

I think you are right about this. First, we need multiple pvals to allow more scope for randomness. Second, we need to retain the distinction between egos (which are defined in ego_item.txt) and randarts (which are totally random). So I agree that adding a few more flags for random additions to ego item entries is the way to go - unless a consensus arises for removing ego_item.txt altogether ...