Ridiculous death due, in my opinion, to flawed design.

[Lord Fell]

Although I'm new to these forums, I started playing Moria about 20 years ago... I haven't touched Code in about a decade, but I did write some custom monsters for "my own" Angband, which was a Frog.Knows version. So, I guess what I'm saying is... I'm am Insider, where Vogrim is an outsider.

Looking at Angband, there is definitely a steep learning curve, and there is definitely a lot of room for instant death, which will surprise the uninitiated. When I first started playing, I didn't realize what a person needed to do to win, so when I hit those Insta-Kills, I didn't really learn. I just assumed that I had been hit by an Out of Depth monster. Of course, I didn't come running to the boards to cry about losing a character, I either save-scummed, or started fresh.

Looking at the game objectively, I do think that there is something of a barrier that new players aren't going to understand. Angband is really a game that was originally written For Coders By Coders... it's not like a Bethesda D&D title, it's more like Chess in RPG format. As such, I think that there's a well developed Elitism in the world of Angband. And yes, since I'm an "Insider" that makes me one of the snobs.

So... what is Lord Fell's long winded point?

I wonder if there isn't something we can do to make the game more "approachable" for the new player? It would probably involve a LOT of work with Help Files, User Interface, and a revamp of the Options file.

[Whelk]

>r
Read which scroll?
a) a Scroll of Forums {Ridiculous death due, in my opinion, to flawed design.}

>a
You feel a sudden stirring nearby!
You feel very naive.
You feel very stupid.
You feel your life draining away.

(Not aimed at anyone in particular - just saying this thread seems to be an exercise in the pointless, other than working people up. Yet I keep coming back to read it.)

[RogerN]

Remember that Angband, Moria, etc... trace their roots back to a time when video games were considerably more difficult across the board. Games were designed to be won only by a handful of dedicated players, while more casual players enjoyed progressing as far as they could (hence the High Scores list). Modern games take a totally different approach in which the player is basically considered to be entitled to a win if he keeps playing/griding long enough.

Although it's an admirable goal to make Angband more newbie-friendly, I don't think it's a good idea to change the basic philosophy that this game should be hard. If you don't want to play a sometimes-unfair game with instant kills and permadeath, it's not like there aren't dozens of other roguelikes and RPGs. Go play Diablo 2 or something.

And it might be mentioned that even Diablo 2, a very mainstream "roguelike" of sorts, attracts plenty of players in its own hardcore game mode (i.e. permadeath) - despite the fact that tough uniques on harder difficulty levels can instantly kill your character if you're not prepared. Or if your 'net connection hiccups at the wrong moment.

[Whelk]

And it might be mentioned that even Diablo 2, a very mainstream "roguelike" of sorts, attracts plenty of players in its own hardcore game mode (i.e. permadeath) - despite the fact that tough uniques on harder difficulty levels can instantly kill your character if you're not prepared. Or if your 'net connection hiccups at the wrong moment.

Oh man; those friggin lightning bosses.

[Vogrim]

Although it's an admirable goal to make Angband more newbie-friendly, I don't think it's a good idea to change the basic philosophy that this game should be hard.

Read and process:

While the game should be challenging by design, the issue of poison resistance at 1900-2000 feet isn't really properly presented as a challenge. Nothing up to that point even begins to approach the lethality that drolems and AMHD:s represent, when you take that one more stairway down. And nothing suggests to the player that poison resistance (out of the plethora of resistances in Angband) is critical - indeed some resistances remain inconsequential through much of the game. So you basically need to a) read the spoilers, b) be warned by a more experienced player or c) learn it the hard way. In an ideally-designed game there'd be d) you extrapolate from the game experience thus far that you could really need some more resistances now. But there's little to extrapolate from, as it happens in such a drastic transition at ca. 1900 feet - and this is something to avoid in game design, IMO.

Have you ever played Shadowgate? Deep in the game, there's a part where coffins are lined up on the walls. One of the coffins contains an item required to beat the game, while another spills slime onto the floor, making it impossible to pass and, thus, impossible to continue. Are you really suggesting that having that coffin of slime there adds anything to the game other than pointless frustration and fake longevity? Is this what you'd call making a game "difficult"? Because from my perspective, it looks like nothing more than a newb trap that poses a threat only to those who don't know it's there. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

[Whelk]

Ooh, I remember that slime coffin. It always creeped me out. I was so excited when my brother told me I could use the GOO-GONE vial to get rid of it. Take that, you miserable mucous.

The shrieking demon coffin always scared me as a kid. I remember begging my brother not to open it, and of course he would, just to scare me. Man. Good times.

[Adley]

IMO

The shorter the quote, the better.
It's an opinion. You have it or not, but making it THE RULE is bad.
Other people have the opposite opinion. And we are more numerous, and we are ones who play like it's always been. if you want to change the game, instead of saying "This is bad!", you should learn how to code and make a variant. What you're doing here is vain, and a waste of time, to you and to us.
Kindness.

[chris]

Because from my perspective, it looks like nothing more than a newb trap that poses a threat only to those who don't know it's there. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Drolems are more than a newb threat ... Since they can't be detected by many classes, they don't cease to be a threat once you know about them. In fact, knowing about them tends to make one overcautious ...

[Djabanete]

I have yet to be killed by a Drolem, ever. They just don't seem to show up that often. Dracolisks, AMHD's, Master Mystics, but no Drolems... I'm missing out

[Djabanete]

Vogrim: Instakill is part of the game. A lot of people wish for this aspect to stay as it is*. We're sorry that you didn't know it could happen. Now you know.

The game could indeed be designed so that newbies are more aware of the instakill possibilities. That would be an improvement. But to some extent it's moot, because what usually happens is that the people who are interested in the game keep playing and learn, and the people who aren't quit.

Why are you still here?


*Because when you DO know how the game works, it's more fun that way.

[Yogalover]

Vogrim if You really want a change of gameplay You should be more polite.

Timo have always been one of those giving newbies good advice about how to survive in Angband, and that without any monetary gain. And this game is made for free made by amateurs that love the game and chance of any them incorperating the changes You want grows if Your polite!

Some ideas to make it easier for newbies:
Enhance levelwarning maybe compare character with monsters on level and give a clear warning like "monsters exists on this level that can instakill You".

Perhaps have a system that reduce expgain depending on if You use some lesser option to make the game easier. My favorite would be strong pseudo id. (I don't mean cheatdeath and such options)

[Timo Pietilä]

I wonder if there isn't something we can do to make the game more "approachable" for the new player? It would probably involve a LOT of work with Help Files, User Interface, and a revamp of the Options file.

There's already couple of suggestions in this thread about that. Help-file update (they are way old now), give people hints of whats coming by doubling the Ancient Dragon HP, more hints in monster descriptions about what they can do. Things like that.

IMO helps should emphasize that monster description gives hints what it might do. That's pretty much all we need to do. When some newbie comes around crying of how some unfair death happened to him then we can point out that there are hints in what the monster might do in monster description.

[Timo Pietilä]

Some ideas to make it easier for newbies:
Enhance levelwarning maybe compare character with monsters on level and give a clear warning like "monsters exists on this level that can instakill You".

That would be bad if you don't include more general info in that too. Otherwise it would give only that to whole last half of the game. Some variant had two-stage level feeling which told you separately something about monsters and items in level. Don't remember which variant.

Perhaps have a system that reduce expgain depending on if You use some lesser option to make the game easier. My favorite would be strong pseudo id. (I don't mean cheatdeath and such options)

In 3.1.2 and onward there is only strong pseudo-ID with artifacts recognized as artifacts as soon as you pick them up. ID gives you full info. If you are still playing a version where there is a difference between strong and weak pseudo, then a lot has changed in late versions. Currently in latest versions there are even ego dragon armors.

[Yogalover]

Mostly play Hengband really the best variant IMO except that all classes don't have strong pseudo id.

Hengband have score system parallell to the exp system. Where the score get lower with easy option and really low with munchkin option.

Have to play the new Vanilla then. I usually avoid playing classes with bad pseudo id. :-)

[buzzkill]

You used these quotes to try to make your point, so allow me to comment on them.

Originally Posted by RogerN
Although it's an admirable goal to make Angband more newbie-friendly, I don't think it's a good idea to change the basic philosophy that this game should be hard.

Making Angband newb friendly and holding the players hand at DL40 are two different things. To make it to the point of fighting the Learnean Hydra IMO moves you firmly outside of newb territory. About being insta-killed, see below.

Originally Posted by SaSa
blah, blah... And nothing suggests to the player that poison resistance (out of the plethora of resistances in Angband) is critical - indeed some resistances remain inconsequential through much of the game. So you basically need to a) read the spoilers, b) be warned by a more experienced player or c) learn it the hard way.....

You choose or rather stumbled upon option C. It's a viable option, though probably the least desirable. You may well be better at this game than I am. My first insta-kill didn't occur until late in my banding life, so it didn't come a total surprise to me, not to say that I wasn't surprised, when a non-unique demon about 40 DL's out-of-depth tore one of my best characters apart. I was perversely proud of myself for reaching a point in my game that such a horrific thing could happen. I can still recall the details of that character and DL even years later. If learning the hard way isn't your cup of tea, then don't play. It's going to happen over and over again. Providing warnings for everything thing that could insta-kill you could be overwhelming at times and certainly would violate the spirit of the game. There are already options available to you, as mentioned earlier in this thread, to hold your hand or give you a second chance if that's what you want.

Have you ever played Shadowgate?

Angband isn't shadowgate. Angband is apparently like no game you've ever played before. That's probably why you like it so much (judging by your passionate though somewhat vague pleas for change). That's why we like it too. Angband isn't a game that holds your hand and leads you down a pre-determined path. It doesn't presents you with pre-determined powerful items and subsequently ever greater tailor made enemies to destroy. You beat Angband by simply playing it long enough to learn not to do stupid things (stupid as defined by the game, not reason). Some people, though dedicated, never win.

There are 1000's of games that are fair and balanced (toward the player) with really awesome graphics that will hold your hand and grant you a win for simply being persistent. Angband isn't one of these. You're still here for a reason. You like Angband (though you may not realize it) because of the way it is, and yet you petition for change. It's evil. It's unfair, and much like RL, if gives you but one chance to live or die. Every keystroke could be your last. Never forget that and someday you'll probably come up with a winner. But be warned... if you are playing only to achieve a win, then you're playing for the wrong reasons, and are in for a world of disappointment.