Separating telepathy and ESP

[Timo Pietilä]

Hello.

This has been in my mind a long time, but I don't have time or skill to do anything to it:

Separate ESP and telepathy. ESP stands for "extra sensory perception" and telepathy is just subset of ESP.

ESP could be PVAL -based and give you more and more accurate result the higher it is. It should also detect treasures, items, traps, doors etc. etc. basically everything including mindless monsters, but without certainty unless you reach 100% with some PVAL.

Range of detection should be PVAL -based too, so that with very high numbers you get rather large area with perfect detection, and even larger with some success, small number only close range without certainty. Max out at detection range. Maybe with each +1 to PVAL range increases with 10 feet and chance of success with 20%, so that with +6 PVAL would give you two grids with 100% detection and 60 feet detection max. Max detection range is 200, so to get that you would need +20+ PVAL, which isn't entirely impossible, but very unlikely (would need four +5 items to get it). One +1 PVAL = useless, two +6 PVAL, very useful. Even one +6 PVAL would remove the need of detect traps/doors/stair/treasure.

Telepathy should still work on any monster with mind at max range just like it does now.

Maybe replace "searching" with this, because searching-boosting items are useless now (unless you base trap LoS detection to searching).

Ultimately this would replace need to use detection completely speeding up the game flow with removing one step everybody does very frequently, but with trade off with other items you are wearing. "Do I use this item that is cool, but reduces my detection? Do I need better detection range, or is the 100 feet enough with these two items"

EDIT: max out at LoS range, not detection range. Same as telepathy. Detection range is way larger than LoS range.

Comments?

[Adley]

This new ESP sounds like the astral vision in nethack. It's powerful to have, extremely so, and in Nethack it doesn't even detect traps. Imo, if you want that kind of detection it should be extremely rare.

[ewert]

A very big change, as it will mess up current class based detection scheme (none, evil, visible, all, etc.). Could it be class and class level based on what are detected? Like rogues get doors/stairs, treasure and finally monsters, priests get evil, living, mapping, mages get visible monsters, all monsters, magic, and so forth? If you wanted to find "other stuff" than your class is good at detecting with ESP, then you'd need to use items or spells like now?

...

I like the idea of class based 3 tier detection range system like this. The current dwarven treasure-sense is also a great platform to build this from.

(steal idea, mwahahahaha)

[Timo Pietilä]

A very big change, as it will mess up current class based detection scheme (none, evil, visible, all, etc.).

Not really. You would still need to use spells until you find that item, and even after you find the item you have way longer range with spells. It becomes really game changing only after you have two or more of those with high PVAL:s. By the time you have it you almost certainly have telepathy or full detection which changes the detection scheme anyway (we are just used to have it). Telepathy has a advantage of being full range detection immediately over ESP in this scheme.

What it changes is need to detect doors and traps with even low pval:s, but it still is a trade between something and something else to use it. Which would you use: helmet of seeing +5 that detects 20% of time at only five grids away and full detection only next to you, or helmet of telepathy which detects monsters at full distance?

If we swap searching to this:

Ego-items:
gauntlets of Thievery
helmet of Seeing

Rings:
Searching
Light

Amulets:
Magi
ESP
Trickery
Searching

Artifacts: 7 with small bonus ranging from +1 to +3 and one +6 and one -5

It would really take some tweaking to find a combo that has similar power as telepathy and still be really powerful otherwise.

[ewert]

Just jumbling the idea around, but thinking that if it stays short ranged (unless pumping it up with items a lot), I see it useful mostly for traps and wall passing monsters, and some with groups of monsters. A little with doors, not much with treasures or stairs. Won't help against ranged threats that usually are the reason for detection, nor for "where to go" problem (I mostly explore only areas with something interesting on the floor or killworthy monsters).

A single ring of searching would therefore be a good swap though. I like the general idea of ESP as a "new" stat. What could be done with it is a good discussion idea definitely.

[buzzkill]

IMO, current telepathy is too powerful, sacrificing it for something else is currently out of the question. I'd like to see a reduced range (LOS+x) and/or reduced functionality (no detect sleeping maybe).

[Timo Pietilä]

Just jumbling the idea around, but thinking that if it stays short ranged (unless pumping it up with items a lot), I see it useful mostly for traps and wall passing monsters, and some with groups of monsters. A little with doors, not much with treasures or stairs. Won't help against ranged threats that usually are the reason for detection, nor for "where to go" problem (I mostly explore only areas with something interesting on the floor or killworthy monsters).

Class that would benefit most from it is warriors. No more lugging around trap/door detection rods, can "see" approaching enemies before they are too close. Especially with low-level rings of searching and amulets of searching. Both slots have better use later in game, so you would not have that benefit too long. Also helmets of seeing are less rare than telepathy, so with Amulet of magi/trickery, helmet of seeing and thievery gauntlets could provide to be useful even deep into dungeon.

Anyway main point is to have non-spell or item trap and door detection more than monster detection.

[Timo Pietilä]

IMO, current telepathy is too powerful, sacrificing it for something else is currently out of the question. I'd like to see a reduced range (LOS+x) and/or reduced functionality (no detect sleeping maybe).

Maybe make it two-way for SMART monsters, so that it works like aggravation works now for them? If you can probe their minds they notice you. 99 monsters currently has that flag out of 616.

[Magnate]

Maybe make it two-way for SMART monsters, so that it works like aggravation works now for them? If you can probe their minds they notice you. 99 monsters currently has that flag out of 616.

I *really* like this idea - the basic issue is that telepathy/esp should be incremental rather than binary. Personally I think they should *both* be pval-based - there has long been an issue that current binary ESP is just too powerful and game-changing, and I think this is a great alternative. I think we could do some more thinking about the difference between telepathy and ESP (how about ESP only for magical things, to avoid making it too powerful?), but this is definitely a good thing to develop ...

[fizzix]

I *really* like this idea - the basic issue is that telepathy/esp should be incremental rather than binary. Personally I think they should *both* be pval-based - there has long been an issue that current binary ESP is just too powerful and game-changing, and I think this is a great alternative. I think we could do some more thinking about the difference between telepathy and ESP (how about ESP only for magical things, to avoid making it too powerful?), but this is definitely a good thing to develop ...

I don't think the magical effect makes any difference.

Moving both to a pval based stat is certainly good. Some experimentation needs to be done to determine what a useful distance would be so that we can scale it appropriately. Of course if multiple pvals exist before this, they can be adjusted independently.

My guess is that (with absolutely no experimentation)
trap/door detection - useful at 1 square
treasure/item detection - useful at 6-10 squares
stair detection - useful at 10-15 squares

The treasure detection is the important one, and that's probably what you'd aim for in a game. You wouldn't sacrifice for stair detection, and would just rely on rods or spells for it.

For monsters, Telep would be marginally useful in the range after your infravision stops. However, to actually be worth sacrificing for, it needs to detect outside of breath range. The main reason that ESP is so important is that you can see all the big threats (except for golems and Qs) in the immediate vicinity. I don't think there should be a fail rate on this, although, I'm not opposed to this aggravating smart monsters (or at least reducing your stealth wrt them)

[Derakon]

My main concern is that we not end up screwing warriors over again. They're horribly dependent on telepathy to stay alert to what's going on in the dungeon around them. Take away their ability to detect monsters and you're basically asking for an "It breathes. You die." setup, increased HP pool or no. You'd have to compensate by adding a cheap rod of monster detection (or something similar), which compounds the inventory issues they also have and adds to the detection tedium.

Howzabout this? Remote monster sense has a fixed range of breath range + 1. Increasing its pval increases the detail level it gives:

+1: all sensed monsters are represented as white 'x's
+2: represented as appropriately-colored 'x' (that unmoving red 'x' could be a demonic quylthulg or a red mold or a sleeping great hell wyrm...well, two of those are mindless, but you get the idea)
+3: represented by letter and color, but can't do extended look on them
+4: as current telepathy

[fizzix]

My main concern is that we not end up screwing warriors over again. They're horribly dependent on telepathy to stay alert to what's going on in the dungeon around them. Take away their ability to detect monsters and you're basically asking for an "It breathes. You die." setup, increased HP pool or no. You'd have to compensate by adding a cheap rod of monster detection (or something similar), which compounds the inventory issues they also have and adds to the detection tedium.

I'm not seeing how this negatively effects warriors as opposed to other classes. They have to detect also. "It breathes, you die" is equally valid for them. In fact, I would say mages are more dependent on telepathy than warriors because they are much less likely to survive a breath.

[PowerDiver]

I'm not seeing how this negatively effects warriors as opposed to other classes. They have to detect also. "It breathes, you die" is equally valid for them. In fact, I would say mages are more dependent on telepathy than warriors because they are much less likely to survive a breath.

Anything mages can accomplish from MB1 they essentially get for free. Even beyond that, my current mage casts detect invisible [which includes visible monsters] before every twist in every corridor. Warriors cannot do that. They rely on items with ESP to survive, and they don't have the escape spells to get out of trouble that comes from aggravating.

[Derakon]

As Eddie noted. Warriors only have two options for reliable monster detection: ESP and Rods of Detection. And the latter recharge so slowly as to be completely impractical for general use (though they are still important for the warrior's kit). Thus if you take away ESP then the warrior has no effective means to figure out what monsters are around him, which makes him far more prone to surprise instadeaths than any other class.

[buzzkill]

They also have far more HP's than other classes, making them better able to survive such a surprise attack.