Ranger spells

[Sincro]

Specifically, the spells in Tenser's transformation.

I have issues with 2 of them: Enchant Weapon, and Elemental Brand.

First, the easy issue: Why is it not possible to choose which brand you get? Especially since if you need arrows of a specific type, it is a simple matter of shop scumming to continue buying arrows (for next to no money by the time you have the TT spellbook) and casting and recasting until you get the brand you want.

Second: The enchant weapon code is truly annoying. I cannot count the number of times I have first spent far too much time getting the proper brand on a stack of arrows, then started enchanting them up, and instead of being able to add a new batch of +9 +9 arrows to an existing stack, the game does something dumb like making the new stack +10 +8, or vice versa. And then trying to make the two stacks the same just ends up being an exercise in frustration. In my humble opinion, the spell ought to be split in 2: one for to hit, the other for to-dam. Or, alternately, code the spell to simple be unable to enchant anything past a certain bonus, be it 9 or (better) 10.

I understand the game is supposed to be difficult, and yes, tedious, too. I am a *long* time player of Nethack, but fairly new to Angband. I am also an extremely long term MMORPG player, and one thing I know for certain, players hate artificial tedium. Make the dungeon as hard as you need to. The town level, and spells primarily used in town, should be easy, simple, straightforward, and give predictable results.

Sincro

[Derakon]

You shouldn't need to synchronize enchantments any more, now that the quiver has been added. Ammo in the quiver takes up a fixed amount of space (one slot per 99 units of ammo, regardless of combination or type).

As for choosing the brand, *shrug*.

[Sincro]

Yes, the quiver is nice, but there's a limit to how many different types of ammo can be inside it. The limit is 10, iirc.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

This isn't gonna get much traction, because it's just not important enough.

Fine, so you use 4 or 5 slots for those arrows. You still have 2 or 3 brands in your quiver. Once a slot has only a handful, make another batch.

OK, the issues you mention are mildly annoying, but it's no big deal to manage within their confines.

[fizzix]

This isn't gonna get much traction, because it's just not important enough.

Fine, so you use 4 or 5 slots for those arrows. You still have 2 or 3 brands in your quiver. Once a slot has only a handful, make another batch.

OK, the issues you mention are mildly annoying, but it's no big deal to manage within their confines.

There's also a sizable amount of people (myself included) that think the branding and enchanting spells should be eliminated altogether.

[nullfame]

There's also a sizable amount of people (myself included) that think the branding and enchanting spells should be eliminated altogether.

Me too.

OTOH, how many *inventory* slots are you devoting to ammo (i.e., how many inventory slots do your 10 quiver slots add up to)? 2? 3? Certainly not 4. I am in the process of trying to finish a ranger (fought Sauron underpowered at cl40 without rDisen or acid ammo, had to bail, long story for AAR) and I found I normally used 1 slot, sometimes 2, I think once or twice 3. Even if you devoted 3, and I would rather be carrying some other useful stuff, you're talking about what, ~25 arrows per stack? That should be plenty. I wouldn't waste my time combining small stacks. YMMV.

[Timo Pietilä]

Specifically, the spells in Tenser's transformation.

I have issues with 2 of them: Enchant Weapon, and Elemental Brand.

First, the easy issue: Why is it not possible to choose which brand you get?

This doesn't matter for long, because I think common consensus is that that branding spell should not stay in Ranger arsenal of spells. It was overpowered when it was introduced and it is overpowered still with weakened artillery. It was just mistake to introduce them in a first place.

[Pete Mack]

@Timo--
Is it really overpowered with weakened multipliers? I always thought the real problem with Rangers was the extra 2(!) shots. Branding currently doubles damage vs vulnerable monsters with an x3 bow. There are plenty of other ways to get that, most notably reaching cl 20 as a ranger. With an x5 bow, branding (or Slay Dragon) only gives an x1.6 bonus, a pretty big step down from x3.0.

I haven't had time for a lot of games of Angband since that change, but I found Tenser's a much lesser benefit for Rogues. (I very rarely play Rangers, but I suspect 2 extra shots is still 1 too many.)

[Timo Pietilä]

@Timo--
Is it really overpowered with weakened multipliers?

Yes!

Ranger problem is not fast shooting, it is the ammo he can get. Especially now that there is a quiver the last obstacle Ranger had is removed: before that he had to manage inventory to carry multiple different stacks of ammo. Branding spell just increases that abuse. You have basically unlimited multi-branded ammo which makes Rangers every shot x2 to nearly any target.

Multi-shot is not that big issue with Rangers now that we also have Slings of Buckland. x4 sling with three shots makes everyone near equal to Ranger with Bard and equal with Belthronding. Even in old days you could get high-damage +1 shot HXbow shooter which made you have only x8 vs x12 Ranger (4x3 or 3x4) unless using Bard (Lothlorien bows didn't exist), not falling that far behind Rangers potential damage.

[fizzix]

@Timo--
Is it really overpowered with weakened multipliers? I always thought the real problem with Rangers was the extra 2(!) shots. Branding currently doubles damage vs vulnerable monsters with an x3 bow. There are plenty of other ways to get that, most notably reaching cl 20 as a ranger. With an x5 bow, branding (or Slay Dragon) only gives an x1.6 bonus, a pretty big step down from x3.0.

It's certainly a lot better now than it was before. Melee is often an option over archery where before it was a no-brainer. However, based on playing without extra shots and nerfed ammo, I'd still vote for:

1: removing extra shots from ranger and changing to extra might (with bows)
2: removing branding spells altogether

You're still going to use ranged attacks to kill most charge drainers, but now at least, Gothmog won't be a complete joke for 3 classes.

[Pete Mack]

@Timo --
I can count on one hand the number of times I've found Buckland (+2).
In the normal scheme of things, it has no impact on the game; when you find one, it's a really big deal. (It's another story in NPP, where Rogue and Brigand already get an extra shot from slings. In that case, Buckland (+1) can be a game changer.)

My preference would be to approach this incrementally.
First, remove the preposterous second extra shot from Rangers, and give the remaining shot at cl 26 (NPP) or 30.

If that's not enough, consider additional changes as necessary. Yes, an early find of Tenser's is a game-changer for Rogue or Ranger. But of themselves, gamechanging finds are not a bad thing.

[Timo Pietilä]

@Timo --
I can count on one hand the number of times I've found Buckland (+2).
In the normal scheme of things, it has no impact on the game; when you find one, it's a really big deal. (It's another story in NPP, where Rogue and Brigand already get an extra shot from slings. In that case, Buckland (+1) can be a game changer.)

I can't. I have found one in almost all of my games. It usually just isn't game changer even if I find one, which further emphasizes that extra shots are not that important. Lothlorien with ESP usually beats it. Or some of the artifact artillery.

Buckland slings have both might and shots, so +1 is only x3 sling, while +2 is x4. There is a big difference between +1 and +2. 2 * 3 vs 3 * 4. That additional +1 makes it twice as powerful as +1, not 50% like Ranger second extra shot.

My preference would be to approach this incrementally.
First, remove the preposterous second extra shot from Rangers, and give the remaining shot at cl 26 (NPP) or 30.

If that's not enough, consider additional changes as necessary. Yes, an early find of Tenser's is a game-changer for Rogue or Ranger. But of themselves, gamechanging finds are not a bad thing.

That extra shot is not overpowering nor preposterous. It is the infinite branded ammo. x2 for every single shot is more than 1/2 more damage from that additional extra shot. In fact it is the infinite ammo that makes rangers extra shots so powerful early. Extra shot uses ammo twice as fast. Three shots uses them three times as fast. Remove guaranteed 99 ammo of each type from general store. If Eddie wants to store-scum by buying it out to get ammo then let him do that.

If you remove that one extra shot then Ranger with high-damage +1 shot HXbow is nearly equally effective as with Bard, Amrod or Belthronding and beats Amras.

Remove quiver and/or all attack spells (and I mean all, including buffs like haste) if you want to make ranger balanced.

[PowerDiver]

Remove quiver and/or all attack spells (and I mean all, including buffs like haste) if you want to make ranger balanced.

If you remove enough spells from the ranger, it starts to look like a warrior. I'm sticking by my opinion that instead of a separate balanced archer class, the warrior should be given a single extra shot at some level, although perhaps with nerfed archery 2 extra shots is not entirely out of the question.

I agree that there is no way to balance the ranger class without drastic changes such as those quoted, but I don't see why anyone would want to do that. Some variants include Maia. Not every race or class or combo thereof needs to be balanced.

[Derakon]

Maia are generally called out as an easy race, though. Do we want to do that for the rangers so people know that they're "playing on easy mode"?

I do think it would be worthwhile noting which classes are strong at what points in the game. E.g. "warriors are easier early on, but have a difficult midgame because of lack of magical detection" and "mages are incredibly fragile and have a very difficult early game, but once they start getting their INT up they're better at surviving". This would help with that particular type of newbie who insists on playing mages and then gets frustrated because they keep dying. Sort of a subtle guide towards "you should probably start with something strong and dumb, and try out the more magically-inclined classes only once you have a handle on basic gameplay and common threats."

[Timo Pietilä]

If you remove enough spells from the ranger, it starts to look like a warrior. I'm sticking by my opinion that instead of a separate balanced archer class, the warrior should be given a single extra shot at some level, although perhaps with nerfed archery 2 extra shots is not entirely out of the question.

I agree that there is no way to balance the ranger class without drastic changes such as those quoted, but I don't see why anyone would want to do that. Some variants include Maia. Not every race or class or combo thereof needs to be balanced.

Because archery is what ranger is good at let it have it. Nerfing the thing that separates it from other classes is not what should be done even if we weaken it. Like Warriors, Mages and Priests, Ranger has an distinct ability that makes it different from all the rest of the classes.

IMO we should make something to Paladins and Rogues, not Rangers. Let it be easy class. Maybe even more archery class than it is now by removing some of the spells, so that that ability gets even more obvious.

Paladins and Rogues are a bit like elves and half-elves in races. Boring. There are no distinct abilities to make them unique.