Warrior buffing suggestion

[ewert]

I don't agree on the initial (canvas backpack) having a weight, as it is considered to be existing with current characters, but of course that is pretty inconsequential so ...

Don't see why it would not be a normal equipment slot regarding wear/takeoff though. Anything equipped can not be damaged/destroyed aside missiles, so neither would these, and yeah I definitely agree zero other abilities except those pertaining to inventory. Although Holding could be thought to be a +speed item ...

Those are good initial ego item subtypes: single element prots, all element prot, extra slot capacity, maybe skip on Holding initially (I think while holding is a stable of rpg's ... it IS a speed item in the end-game and thus not sure if we should do it), drain protection (when you got immunities to elements you care most, you'll want to change to drain protection backpack). What else? Maybe if we go to 20-30 stack size change, we could include a storage boost ego type that increases the stack size +5-10 or so...

[Pete Mack]

Why a backpack, and not just a Sangband-style blanket?
The original discussion was about how to make melee more competitive with archery. The notion that you can stick a full suit of armor in a backpack is peculiar to begin with, as is the notion that you can carry your own body-weifht in gear and still fight effectively.

[Derakon]

Two main reasons:

* If the original goal is to make warriors more willing to engage in melee, the answer should not IMO be one that favors classes that are non-warriors (given that warriors have a heavier inventory crush than the other classes do).
* Angband currently doesn't have any items that give you passive benefits while they sit in your inventory. Having an explicit backpack helps maintain the connection between "thing I equip" and "benefits I get from equipping that thing".

[buzzkill]

Wouldn't new ego-cloak types be a lot easier. Cloaks are worn (presumably) over the pack, so you could just change useless cloaks of protection into useful cloaks of protection.

[fizzix]

So I'm just getting to reading this thread and I have some thoughts.

I don't like the elemental protection back packs or cloaks. I think the only thing that should grant immunity to inventory damage is immunity items. Resistance items should make stuff less likely. Blankets of immunity seem hokey, and everyone would use them.

I also don't like allowing immunity to charge draining. Charge drainers are some of the most challenging monsters in the game. I've been pushing a lot for charge draining to remove a recharge worth, and I still think this is a good idea.

The main problem with warriors is that many of the items that they need are difficult to replace. Some solutions to this are easy:

1: give rods of teleport other ignore_elec
2: make rods of detection more common. The fact that they're so rare is really a dick move to warriors, the only class that doesn't get a detection spell.
3: make potions of speed more common
4: make some of the useful scrolls more common. Most notably teleportation and teleport level, but also destruction and rune of protection.

I've found staves of speed are common enough, and I wouldn't propose changing any of the higher staves. If you wanted to, you could give some ignore_acid and ignore_fire, but I don't prefer this approach.

There's one change that I'm surprised no one suggested so far. Why not make inventory damage occur *solely* from breaths, balls and bolt spells, and not from melee? Walk into a room of water hounds, lose a lot of inventory. Melee a storm giant, don't lose anything.

[Pete Mack]

...
Or at least give Rods of Detection another bump at dl 80 (speed ring depth). They take ridiculously long (~400 player turns) to recharge at speed +20 or more.

[ewert]

So I'm just getting to reading this thread and I have some thoughts.

I don't like the elemental protection back packs or cloaks. I think the only thing that should grant immunity to inventory damage is immunity items. Resistance items should make stuff less likely. Blankets of immunity seem hokey, and everyone would use them.

I also don't like allowing immunity to charge draining. Charge drainers are some of the most challenging monsters in the game. I've been pushing a lot for charge draining to remove a recharge worth, and I still think this is a good idea.

The main problem with warriors is that many of the items that they need are difficult to replace. Some solutions to this are easy:

1: give rods of teleport other ignore_elec
2: make rods of detection more common. The fact that they're so rare is really a dick move to warriors, the only class that doesn't get a detection spell.
3: make potions of speed more common
4: make some of the useful scrolls more common. Most notably teleportation and teleport level, but also destruction and rune of protection.

I've found staves of speed are common enough, and I wouldn't propose changing any of the higher staves. If you wanted to, you could give some ignore_acid and ignore_fire, but I don't prefer this approach.

There's one change that I'm surprised no one suggested so far. Why not make inventory damage occur *solely* from breaths, balls and bolt spells, and not from melee? Walk into a room of water hounds, lose a lot of inventory. Melee a storm giant, don't lose anything.

Wands and rods of tOther are more common with new item file, my warriors have not had problems with that area (playing only warriors at the moment, stupid kobolds getting careless ). Rods of Detection should also be more common, barring rng interference you should start to have them by midgame, or atleast by end-game (one warrior of mine found 2 just prior Sauron, one had a couple by dlvl40ish, so IMHO not bad). Staves of speed and potions of speed are plentiful enough now, once staves start showing up I tend to start saving potions at home, don't feel a problem with them anymore. Aside rune (which I tend to squelch, weird me) tele and teleLevel atleast are plenty enough. *Destr* feels okay rarity. Test the new nightly a few games and have a feel for it.

BUT your final idea, changing only spells/balls to have inventory damage, now that is a great one. One detail though, should acid hits still damage armor? If so, that is "melee damages only armor, not inventory" and "spells/breaths damage inventory/armor"?

[fizzix]

I know a lot of the rarity problems are currently being addressed, I just wanted to point out that this was the way to go, not inventory immunity.

Think about how many PB6 you find in a normal game. Rods of detection should be about as common as that. Not finding them until dlevel 99 is not cool. They can be rare at dlevel 40, but give them another big bump later on as Pete suggests.

The *only* class that needs -dall are warriors, so making this rod more common really helps them and provides only a small benefit for other classes.

[ewert]

The one that found -Det only at the end really was an outlier, he had other detect rods up the wazoo, and detection is only half as rare as them so should have definitely had some by then. Sometimes just beeb happens.

Yeah I agree that considering the ease of other classes getting detection, it should not be so hard. So maybe a slight deepening and commoning is in order, but lets see how it is working with current setting.

[bron]

The discussion seems to have wandered off into inventory destruction; an interesting (but different) topic. While I like the suggestion of only breath attacks damaging inventory, not melee, I think that this would be a little *too* good. But something along those lines could be a winner.

To return to the original topic: perhaps a better approach would be to have a "Weapon Skill" rating analogous to the current "Device Skill" rating. Right now, if you have a high Device Skill, you do more damage with e.g. a Rod of Fire Bolts than someone with a lower Device Skill would do. This same approach could be used with melee weapons: doing greater amounts of base damage with a weapon with higher levels of skill. Warriors get a big boost, Paladins and Rogues get some, others get very little. No doubt some variants already do this, but I'm personally only familiar with Vanilla.

[Magnate]

...
Or at least give Rods of Detection another bump at dl 80 (speed ring depth). They take ridiculously long (~400 player turns) to recharge at speed +20 or more.

This is another problem that will go away if Takk allows me to set recharge times as per Timo's "speed bubble" concept.

[Atarlost]

There's one change that I'm surprised no one suggested so far. Why not make inventory damage occur *solely* from breaths, balls and bolt spells, and not from melee? Walk into a room of water hounds, lose a lot of inventory. Melee a storm giant, don't lose anything.

That makes so much sense. It should be second nature to protect your gear from melee, otherwise plain old hit:hurt would be breaking wands and potions. I'd also make bolt spells not do inventory damage to make them a bit more different from balls from the player's perspective. Not having friends the fact that they hit adjacent squares isn't really a problem much.