reduce slot size

[nullfame]

The right way, realism-wise, would probably be to go to some kind of "bulk" system where you have a finite volume and each individual item you pick up uses some of that volume.

I think weight does a pretty good job simulating that. Can you carry 99 lances? Well, no... and yes.

[Jungle_Boy]

I think I like the idea of limiting all stack sizes to 50. The only thing i carry in stacks greater than that is ammo which is what we are trying to limit anyway. If this resulted in not enough arrows being sold at the general store we could give him two slots for arrows.

[Jungle_Boy]

Also a quick note on odd quiver behavior. I have seen a couple instances where the autopickup would actually drop the arrows in the quiver in order to pick up the stack on the floor and wield it. Unfortunately, while I know this has happened to me a couple times I cannot remember the exact circumstances. I do not think my quiver was full because if memory serves I believe I was able to step on the old stack and it went straight back into the quiver. I'll keep an eye out and if it happens again I'll take better note of the situation.

[Timo Pietilä]

That's the question. I think 99 items per slot is too many and thus broken. You think not. Anyone else?

"I think" is not quite enough as a reason (unless you are Takkaria :-)). Any reason why do that? You listed two downsides in you initial post, but not any reason why we should do that change.

I list one more downside: shops wont buy back big stacks of stuff, because they get full faster.

[PowerDiver]

"I think" is not quite enough as a reason (unless you are Takkaria :-)). Any reason why do that? You listed two downsides in you initial post, but not any reason why we should do that change.

It's just how I feel. My warrior is currently carrying over 80 !CCW and that seems abusive. I have felt for many years that 99 is just too much. I carry 99 ?phase when I go against M. Perhaps that ought to cost 2 or 3 slots, and so would lead to interesting tradeoffs.

If you could only carry 20 items per slot, you would have decisions such as whether to carry 20 ?id or 2 _id. The former survives pack effects better, but the latter provides more total id if you keep it safe. That might be an interesting tradeoff.

However, ammo already drops in stacks occasionally over 30, so dropping stack size to 30 would break those. As I said before, 50 feels like a nice round number. It would be a mistake to go directly to 20/slot, but perhaps test a year at 50, then 40, etc to see when gameplay suffers or if it keeps getting better.

I don't see why someone should get worked up about carrying 50 ammo in a [quiver] slot if you allow 99 !CCW in a slot.

[Magnate]

It's just how I feel. My warrior is currently carrying over 80 !CCW and that seems abusive. I have felt for many years that 99 is just too much. I carry 99 ?phase when I go against M. Perhaps that ought to cost 2 or 3 slots, and so would lead to interesting tradeoffs.

If you could only carry 20 items per slot, you would have decisions such as whether to carry 20 ?id or 2 _id. The former survives pack effects better, but the latter provides more total id if you keep it safe. That might be an interesting tradeoff.

However, ammo already drops in stacks occasionally over 30, so dropping stack size to 30 would break those. As I said before, 50 feels like a nice round number. It would be a mistake to go directly to 20/slot, but perhaps test a year at 50, then 40, etc to see when gameplay suffers or if it keeps getting better.

I don't see why someone should get worked up about carrying 50 ammo in a [quiver] slot if you allow 99 !CCW in a slot.

Man this forum is busy nowadays - by the time I get home from work I can barely catch up before bedtime!

I don't really share the view that the quiver should only take up one inv slot. I'm used to Sangband, where the quiver won't expand if there isn't a free inv slot for it to take - you get an error message that there is not enough room in the quiver, so the accidental-drop problem doesn't arise. If there's a quiver at all, it should contain precisely ten slots for ammo (per Eddie's UI reasoning), and take up as many inv slots as needed (total number of items in quiver / max number of items per inv slot).

I *am* in favour of limiting the total number of missiles in the quiver - but having played several games with it, only once have I ever needed more than two inv slots. I think 198 or 297 (two or three inv slots) would be fine. If anything I think the problem here is that ammo is too plentiful, not that the quiver is too generous. I think we should make ammo drops quite a bit rarer (though that will partly happen when drops of wieldables get tweaked anyway).

I am (still) ambivalent about reducing the max slot size. I can see Eddie's point, but can also see Timo's/Derakon's. Like Miyazaki, I think it's only worth doing if it's a serious change, so I'd support 25 or 30 rather than 50. We have been debating how to make the game harder, after all.

I am persuaded that different slot sizes for quiver and pack is probably a bad idea.

Radical edit: how about making you pay for the quiver? This is a move in the direction of NPP store services: you could pay a bunch of cash for the first five quiver slots, and then yet more for the next five ...

[Derakon]

Radical edit: how about making you pay for the quiver? This is a move in the direction of NPP store services: you could pay a bunch of cash for the first five quiver slots, and then yet more for the next five ...

I BET YOU'D LIKE TO HAVE MORE BOMBS

More seriously, it could work. However, I can't help but think that money will always be no object by the mid-late game in Angband, which is the point at which the quiver starts getting silly anyway...

[d_m]

Even better (worse?) imagine a quiver item, either in a new slot or in the cloak slot--different quivers have different # slots, capacity, etc.

Maybe that's a slippery slope to bags...

[miyazaki]

I am (still) ambivalent about reducing the max slot size. I can see Eddie's point, but can also see Timo's/Derakon's. Like Miyazaki, I think it's only worth doing if it's a serious change, so I'd support 25 or 30 rather than 50. We have been debating how to make the game harder, after all.

The advantage of making limiting all slots to 25 is that you wouldn't have to change the behaviour of the quiver. It would effectively nerf the quiver storage capacity.

Thoughts on making armour/weapons non-stackable?

[Derakon]

Thoughts on making armour/weapons non-stackable?

Much as it's unrealistic, it's also effectively a non-issue since you so rarely find two items that have both the same type and the same modifiers.

Though I did manage to generate two Hard Leather Armors of Resist Electricity (+27) using debug mode's Acquirement action earlier.

[fizzix]

I would eagerly accept Eddies quiver suggestion with a limit on quiver slots anywhere 35+ or Timo's suggestion of only one quiver with a 99 arrow capacity. However, I'd really really like the same behavior to appear in the home...

Right now putting in a home quiver is silly powerful. But if slot size was 35 or even 50, it wouldn't make *that* much difference.

[bron]

My opinion: the idea of the quiver is to allow the player to hold multiple small stacks of arrows, e.g. the half-dozen or so slay undead arrows leftover after killing the Witch King or whatever. To that end, I think that the quiver should only hold a total number of missiles equal to one inventory slot (right now 99, but maybe less in the future). There should be no "expansion": you get max one quiver (only) and it occupies max one inventory slot (only). The number of slots in the quiver itself isn't too much of an issue as long as the total capacity of the quiver is restricted. To serve what I see as it's intended function, more slots is better, so I like 10 more than 5. But 5 is certainly workable.

As for generically reducing slot capacity from 99 to (say) 50: its darn rare for me to be carrying more than 50 of anything other than missiles. (Usually (+0,+0), although after getting Tenser's I've been known to carry a lot of (+9,+9) branded missiles.) I don't think it would affect me at all, and is probably a good thing to reduce abuse. But I frankly don't consider it to be a big deal either way.

[ewert]

My thoughts:

slot size 50 - definitely could live with it. Applies to quiver "slots" too. Thing is though ... I would not really lose anything by it, so it would be a moot change (I use archery so little, with any char, as I for some reason dislike ranger at the moment with the extra shots class ability so much I haven't played one for ages).

slot size 20 - would change some for me. I very very rarely carry anything over 15, id scrolls and sometimes ccw come in mind, and definitely for final fights if needed. Since I feel the max should be the same for both "quiver slots" and normal slots, I would feel this is bit too low

slot size 30-40 - probably the compromise size for me. 30 would sometimes matter. It would also definitely matter for final fights a bit, no more stacks of "infinite" ccw unless sacrifice some more slots. For quiver ... sounds okayish, but then again I am an archery deviant and don't really use it (have a *slay undead* crossbow randart with my pally now, tempted to use it on undead uniques ).

So, 30-40 would prolly be a nice point in my opinion.

[d_m]

My opinion: the idea of the quiver is to allow the player to hold multiple small stacks of arrows, e.g. the half-dozen or so slay undead arrows leftover after killing the Witch King or whatever. To that end, I think that the quiver should only hold a total number of missiles equal to one inventory slot (right now 99, but maybe less in the future). There should be no "expansion": you get max one quiver (only) and it occupies max one inventory slot (only). The number of slots in the quiver itself isn't too much of an issue as long as the total capacity of the quiver is restricted. To serve what I see as it's intended function, more slots is better, so I like 10 more than 5. But 5 is certainly workable.

Even if we wanted to limit the "compression" capacity of the quiver to only 99 pieces of ammo, I agree with Eddie that I don't want to have to play the ammo shuffling game constantly. I would want to compress as many small ammo stacks as possible up to 99 into one slot, and then have each quiver slot map directly onto the pack. This way all the ammo can still live in the same place.

I don't really see this as "expansion" so much as being more friendly.

[PowerDiver]

If you have more avg arrows than fit into a slot, they go into two slots. E.g. if you carry 140 arrows currently, they automatically merge to use 2 pack slots even if you pick them up 20 at a time. I view the quiver as simply meaning that all ammo can merge, instead of requiring the same sval/tval/ego/plusses. So how ever many slots are taken up using X average arrows, the quiver allows any combination of up to 10 types of ammo cumulatively counting X to fit into the same number of slots as the average arrows would take up.

From this point of view quiver "expansion" is equally as natural as 140 avg arrows currently using 2 slots given the current max slot size of 99.