Feature request: Semi-random monsters

[miyazaki]

I guess this is a fairly large request, but I think the game would be improved with some randomization to monster abilities. I know there have been threads about this before and people with more programming nous than I have said that it is hard to create a totally random set of monsters that are as difficult as the current set.

I imagine taking a subset of monsters, maybe 25-50%, and giving them additional abilities on top of their standard. For example, AMHD would be given a sixth breath ability on top of the standard five. Or umber hulks get an additional resistance.

These random abilities would be created at the start of a new character (like randarts) and would be the same for all members of a species. So if one AMHD breathes gravity, they all do. The abilities could be discovered through probing or in battle. The monster recall could tell the player if he has knows all the monsters abilities or not.

Just like randarts inject a layer of difficulty and unknown, I think some randomness in the monsters would make the game more challenging and more fun.

[ekolis]

Interesting... kinda reminds me of Wesnoth's character traits (only these would not be per-monster, instead per-species?)... I think Magecrawl is doing something like this too...

[Derakon]

The issue I see here is that there are some instadeath attacks that you simply have to know the monster has before you ever see it, so you can avoid getting anywhere near it. For example, if your AMHD got nexus breath instead, then I would want to avoid getting into LOS of any AMHDs until I had nexus resistance. Knowledge of every monster's most dangerous abilities is very important to successful Angband play as it stands; to support random monsters without also causing random "there's no way I could have known" instadeaths, you'd need to make significant changes to overall game balance.

[miyazaki]

The issue I see here is that there are some instadeath attacks that you simply have to know the monster has before you ever see it, so you can avoid getting anywhere near it. For example, if your AMHD got nexus breath instead, then I would want to avoid getting into LOS of any AMHDs until I had nexus resistance. Knowledge of every monster's most dangerous abilities is very important to successful Angband play as it stands; to support random monsters without also causing random "there's no way I could have known" instadeaths, you'd need to make significant changes to overall game balance.

I see you point but I don't totally agree. It is a change that would make diving more dangerous for sure. But there are lots of players who pause on certain levels to collect resistances before going deeper. It is a change that would favour level-clears, I think.

I think the insta-death issue could be solved with one of two simple changes:

1. More accessible probing. This could be solved by creating scrolls of probing that are cheaply available in town.

2. The alternative would be to give the player full monster memory. Some people are already lobbying for this now. I could support it, if there was randomized monster abilities that made every monster set unique.

[Derakon]

I'd be fine with this if you didn't have to learn monster abilities. Maybe even if seeing one monster use an ability would allow you to recognize other monsters that can use the same ability, much like the "rune-based" object knowledge approach (e.g. see a gravity hound breathe, now you know Kavlax can breathe gravity). Probing...eh, maybe. It would certainly give a purpose to probing in the game.

[nullfame]

I don't have a problem with the current monster set but I think if you wanted to randomize abilities you should make random monsters rather than having grey mushrooms breathe gravity. If something randomly had an ability I wasn't expecting that wouldn't be fun for me. Coming across something altogether new seems okay.

[NotMorgoth]

I agree that if there was to be randomisation, it should be new, completely random monsters rather than giving standard monsters different abilities. Then if you see a weird monster type, you know you have to be careful until you find out what it can do (unless you have complete monster memory.)

This idea reminds me a bit of the Forgotten Beasts in Dwarf Fortress, although some of them are probably not things you would want in Angband (A giant quadruped composed of vomit, for example.)

[Xaxyx]

Spontaneously generating and detailing a wholly randomized yet sufficiently power-balanced monster set seems a tad daunting, logistically. Perhaps a compromise could be considered? Maybe just the Unique monsters could instead be randomized. Determine at game start which monster sets and/or subsets have Uniques, randomly name them (leveraging the technology currently used to name random Artifacts), and give them some appropriately relevant random powers (intelligent monsters can cast some spells; breath-using base monster types might get extra breath types; etc).

[Nick]

EyAngband, the variant for the current comp, has ego monsters - maybe that is something like what is being suggested here..

[Derakon]

I think that if you're able to come up with a reasonably balanced random set of unique monsters, then there's nothing stopping you from applying the same logic to the entire beastiology.

[miyazaki]

EyAngband, the variant for the current comp, has ego monsters - maybe that is something like what is being suggested here..

This is what I was suggesting. To draw an analogy with weapons, I am thinking about the randon high resist on weapons of gondolin, rather than a randart. I think it would be easier to implement and make the game a little more difficult without changing any fundamental fighting strategies.

I will definintely check out the latest competition.

[nobody]

ego monsters are pretty neat, i was trying to remember which variant had that as i was reading the first post in the thread. they're not quite what you want though, its just some monsters of each type have extraordinary abilities. do any other variants have ego monsters? i recall it being fun, i'll have to check out ey again, it's been years since i played ey

[Derakon]

ToME 2 has 'em. Orcs and ogres get captains as an ego-type (so e.g. you get uruk captains instead of just plain orc captains), trolls get chieftans, priest-types can be liches (novice priest liches are scary!), just about anything can be spectral or skeletal, and so on. It adds decent variety, but they don't interact well with the monster memory -- you just get the vanilla monster listing, no indications of extra powers, additional speed, greater experience award, etc.

[NotMorgoth]

The player ghosts in some variants are also a similar example, as they get varying characteristics depending on what type of undead they are and the abilities of the character they are based on.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

A compromise, to see if it was interesting, might be to give a random defense to some monsters, rather than a random attack. Oops, that cold attack was resisted? Surprise! But not one that would be lethal.

Another option, for monsters that are melee-centric, would be a side effect they don't normally have...poison and cuts would be good at lower levels, and might still make life interesting through mid-levels.

The big, scary thing is sudden, new breath weapons because of the high damage potential, it seems to me. Other things shouldn't be nearly as bad.