rings of escaping

[Derakon]

Wait, why are we trying to figure out if the character is cornered, again?

[PowerDiver]

Wait, why are we trying to figure out if the character is cornered, again?

If, instead of a fumble roll, you completely outlaw melee when frightened, it becomes unreasonable to some that a cornered char out of consumables has to stand there doing nothing while being beaten to death. This may be off topic, since for now rings of escaping cannot come with sticky curses. Nevertheless, my experience is that if you get the border cases right the standard case tends to be improved.

[Timo Pietilä]

We have scrolls of dispel evil

We have? I don't recall such a scroll. Is it a new addition?

Presumably the list will increase over time. Are you going to disallow those? What about unidentified scrolls and potions?

I said "scrolls and potions should remain error-free".

How about a scroll of light. Can you read that? What if a snaga steps near? What if the snaga is invisible and you don't know about it? What if you detected an invisible susceptible to light 10 turns earlier? Rules involving intent simply suck.

We could rationalize that as things that doesn't require much concentration remain error-free (drinking potion or reading a scroll would be quite basic thing to do).

[PowerDiver]

We have? I don't recall such a scroll. Is it a new addition?.

I am a bit confused. I meant "dispel undead". I don't know why I wrote evil instead of undead.

[Hariolor]

After all this, I'm finding myself agreeing most with the original suggestions.

Pval +6 makes perfect sense to me.

50% fail on any activity may be a bit much, however. I think a significant penalty to to-hit and to magical device usage should be adequate. Maybe -30 to-hit and a hard-coded 5% cap on activation and spell-casting success?

I'm ambivalent about changing how they affect healing. I don't feel natural healing is usually that significant an issue unless you're playing for turncount.

[ewert]

Hit penalties for ranged and increased spell failure rates (not min fail but just fail) are failing balance-wise with the RoE.

+6 and 50% fail (per ring) on anything but moving, equipping/removing and potions/scrolls, it sounds good to me. One could easily argue that also potions (drop in panic) and scrolls (stutter) should fail, but lets just go with simplicity in some things instead of splitting hairs of what can and can not be done.

As an aside, the 50% fail in melee for afraid instead of no melee at all for "normal" fear sounds good too.

[nullfame]

Are you really recalling down with a RoE in your inventory ? I can see using them the way you described... if I happen to carry one for the purpose of selling it

/me consults his notes.

No, I suppose I did not recall with them in the normal case.

When I abused it with a mage, yes I recalled wearing them and when I swapped them out even saved 2 in the home in case my rings became obsolete before being replaced. I think that's the case OP is after.

In the period where they are useful (pre-30) I might have recalled with them if I didn't need money but I always did. If they were worth 1/4 of the current value I probably would carry, as strange as that sounds. To me the price it fetches is too great to pass up, but use in the dungeon was not lost on me (e.g., unlike ?phase I don't end up on the other side of the orc unique in a room full of escorts). The value proposition is the opposite of how I see wand of sleep monster: useful to carry for a few levels since it might get me out of a jam, but not worth enough to sell. But, yes, they are similar in the sense that they aren't clear sell/save objects.

Maybe I'll raise the selling issue again (as an overall supporter of the idea). Would raising the speed pval make them worth more in the stores? I.e., if they are currently only used while in the inventory being carried to sell and this idea is (in the minds of some) making them less useful in the dungeon but more valuable in the store, aren't we just giving away free money? Does that matter?

[Derakon]

Raising the pval would increase their selling price, but that could be counteracted by increasing the price penalty for the "terror" attribute.

[Jungle_Boy]

I'd like to see some changes made to rings of escaping. I only use them as intended, to run fast when I need to escape. I use them a bit. They aren't particularly broken, but talking about energy and scoring for the comp made me think of them again.

First off, I've never liked the "you can shoot but you cannot melee" effects anywhere, and these rings are no exception. I also think a normal speed char ought to be able to use them to run from a fast critter. I don't think they should be usable as cheap speed rings. So here are my suggested changes

(1) change fear flag on escaping rings. No more -20 to hit or spell failure or inability to melee. Instead, 50% chance to fail at *anything* except movement, including using consumables, before checking for failure rates. "You fumble with your ...".

(2) increase the pval at least to +6, maybe to +10, so that with 2 rings you can get away from someone fast If +10, definitely need 2 rings to cause 2 50% fumble checks above.

(3) give them impair_hp and impair_mana so that if healing is changed to depend upon energy, you don't heal faster by putting one on. Even if healing is not changed, I think this makes sense.

I agree with all of these suggested changes, even to applying the fumble chance to taking off the ring and using stairs. If you are terrified you may be looking over your shoulder as you run or you keep looking up from whatever you are doing to see what is coming for you. Your concentration is completely shot to the point that even easy things become more difficult. I could see using a slightly lower fumble chance, maybe as low as 30% but definitely make the fumble chance stack.

[PowerDiver]

I could see using a slightly lower fumble chance, maybe as low as 30% but definitely make the fumble chance stack.

You realy want (10 + pval) * (1 - fumble) <= 10. That means no more non-fumble actions on average wearing the ring than not wearing the ring, for a normal speed char. Of course, even breaking even is a big penalty if fumbling applies to escapes. A fumble of 30% should imply a max pval of 4 IMO.

I keep changing my mind whether a pval +6 or +10 would be better. I'm a bit surprised no one said anything in favor of +10.

[Jungle_Boy]

You realy want (10 + pval) * (1 - fumble) <= 10. That means no more non-fumble actions on average wearing the ring than not wearing the ring, for a normal speed char.

This makes sense, I had not considered the extra speed giving you more chance to make an action thus reducing the effective penalty of fumbling. What about allowing it to be variable? A higher pval results in a higher fumble chance.

On changing to +10 speed, I think that would be too high, +6 should be plenty, that would allow you to escape a fast monster with two of them. If using the ring causes you to be significantly faster than your opponent it becomes more of an offensive item than an escape, especially if you break even on actions. Backing and shooting down a corridor may take longer but you are in no danger since you can move away fast enough.