Making the game harder

[ChodTheWacko]

--GREATLY reduce all magical monster removers, except possibly Banishment...Teleport Other and Mass Banishment will break ANY attempt to reduce this problem.

We have to be careful here.
You need to preserve safe options for getting out of a fight you are losing.

--No unguarded good loot outside a vault. (Which is why TO effects need extensive reconsideration.)

I have an interesting idea - how about no loot on the ground, period?
Maybe except for vaults, since they are so risky anyway?

The reason Angband is so bizarro in game mechanics (the other poster was right - 'diving' only works for Angband) is due to the RNG. In most RPGs, you can't' just go to the last dungeon. You'll get wiped out instantly. You can't jump from the mid level dungeon to the last one either - okay, maybe you won't die instantly, but neither can you kill anything to get your characters stronger. You have to work your way up the ladder.



If you really want to get rid of the diving mechanic, then it really should be something like this:
1) No loot on the ground for you to just walk in and grab and leave.
2) Monsters drop appropriate level items, relative to that monster's native level. Great wyrms should only drop great items. Snagas should only drop weak items, even if you kill one on DLVL 99.
3) Store items need to cost a LOT more, and gold drops should be proportional do the level of the monster you kill.

It should be possible for a weak monster to drop a more powered item, but it should be exponentially more difficult. (like finding a ring of speed +20). As a general rule you should always have a set of monsters that are 'hard' for you to kill, but are required killing, in order for you to get items/abilities that you need to kill monsters that are currently impossible to kill.

That will make the game consistently more fun. There is a certain amount of charm to the 'just sneak in, hide/take potshots till you get the uber weapons you need to kill everything, and then win', but it's just not a very balanced game. Although admittedly, it is part of Angband's charm.

--Separate mapping functions from treasure detection. I'd much prefer !Enlightenment stops, for example, at mapping and lighting the whole level. NO treasure detection at all. (But man, I'd *love* it if it did TRAP detection.)

They are kind of useless then. I don't mind enlightenment potions as
long as they aren't that easy to get. (and I don't think they are).

- Frank

[ChodTheWacko]

I postulate that you cannot make the game too hard for diving to be effective. More dangerous monsters just means I will go through consumables faster (escapes, teleport other). Diving will still be the dominant strategy. Therefore it is silly to try discouraging it. IMO.

I think the opposite direction is more fun:

You should make monsters more dangerous and bump up consumables so that you can (and should) fight them.

- Frank

[Derakon]

The thing is, "laddered" setups like that are boring. They're predictable, and there's no reason to try to take any shortcuts. You have no incentive to:

* Try to stealth around dangerous monsters. You know that the only way to get worthwhile gear is to fight dangerous enemies, so the only point to stealth is to avoid waking up monsters while you kill other monsters.
* Pay any attention to monsters that are not the strongest (read: deepest) monsters currently available to fight. You might as well just banish/destruct them so they don't bother you.

Moreover, there becomes basically no chance of that "one in a million" drop happening. But those instances are a big part of what makes Angband fun. You never know when that game-changing item might show up. That snaga might be carrying it. He probably won't be, but it's not impossible.

Fundamentally I don't think that powerdiving is a broken game mechanic. I certainly don't think we want to completely overhaul the game's risk/reward structure just to address powerdiving. I think that powerdiving should be a lot more dangerous (increased risk), but that the current item assignation system is fairly good barring consumables (reward is about right). About all I'd suggest as far as rewards is concerned is to move back to averaging the monster's level and the dungeon level, instead of taking the maximum of the two. Maybe do max(monster level, average(monster level, dungeon level)).

Getting rid of floor items sounds like exactly the wrong way to go. We want to encourage people to try to reach specific parts of the dungeon, even if there's dangerous monsters in the way. This becomes more likely as we scatter more items about. Why should not killing enemies be such a frowned-upon concept? Most of the time it's too easy as it stands, sure, but don't tell me you've never gotten a thrill out of sneaking past a big dragon or a horde of demons so you could snatch away some precious item on the floor.

[Hariolor]

*snip*
1) No loot on the ground for you to just walk in and grab and leave.
2) Monsters drop appropriate level items, relative to that monster's native level. Great wyrms should only drop great items. Snagas should only drop weak items, even if you kill one on DLVL 99.
3) Store items need to cost a LOT more, and gold drops should be proportional do the level of the monster you kill.
*snip
- Frank

I agree totally on #1, aside from basic consumables, which seem reasonable to have just tossed about (torches, food, basic potions and scrolls). I'd limit artifacts to vaults and uniques only, as well.

I also agree on #2, pretty much entirely.

Really, aside from consumables, there's no reason for there to be stores. Even a marginally capable player like myself can, with a little patience, do just fine by wandering the first 5 dungeon levels for awhile to put together a decent enough kit to dive further. Gold is 10% useful (mostly just for warriors and low level chars), and 90% exploitative at this point.

---

Not saying that I necessarily think these should be implemented whole-cloth, but I feel that they are solid ideas for making the game harder/more interesting.

[Nick]

Just a few observations:

• Radical change will certainly force change of playstyle on some people
• Generally giving players more choices rather than less is a good thing
• I haven't noticed anyone who hasn't won the game complaining about it being boring
• There's only one winner in the comp so far
• The game being easy for experienced players with optimised race, class, stats and options is no surprise to me

Not drawing any conclusions. Just saying.

[ChodTheWacko]

The thing is, "laddered" setups like that are boring. They're predictable, and there's no reason to try to take any shortcuts.

See, I don't know about this. The RNG keeps this interesting.
1) You can still have Out of depth monsters
2) You can still get lucky items, but the chance should be signifigantly reduced. ( max (lvl/monster) makes this silly)
3) The nature of Angband is that you will always be able to kill certain types of harder monsters, due to their variety. There will always be some monsters you can kill, and some you can't. Better players will be able to do more with less, and so diving will still happen, increasing their risk/reward.

I'm not really protesting diving. I'm protesting the ability to get your character signifigantly better without fighting anything.

You have no incentive to:
* Try to stealth around dangerous monsters. You know that the only way to get worthwhile gear is to fight dangerous enemies, so the only point to stealth is to avoid waking up monsters while you kill other monsters.

Unless you want to clear every level, like you can now, I think players will play at the hardest level they can survive at and still kill monsters. There will always be monsters that pose a great threat. I don't think this will change that much.

* Pay any attention to monsters that are not the strongest (read: deepest) monsters currently available to fight. You might as well just banish/destruct them so they don't bother you.

Isn't this the way it is now, though?
Don't players head directly for monsters with drop_good / drop_great / high levels, in order to maximize the chance per fight that they get a quality item?

(Or has max(lvl, monster) completely screwed that up?

Moreover, there becomes basically no chance of that "one in a million" drop happening. But those instances are a big part of what makes Angband fun.

Nah, you can leave that in.
But I disagree that dlvl should be a factor in what the monster drops.

At a deep dungeon level, a really low level monster has no chance of killing you. I'm 100% okay with getting very little for swatting a fly/pest.

but don't tell me you've never gotten a thrill out of sneaking past a big dragon or a horde of demons so you could snatch away some precious item on the floor.

Yes I have, but the problem is once you have a combo of
rod of treasure detection, and a rod of teleport other, dungeon objects
are just too easy.

Maybe get rid of rods of teleport other, leaving wands, since you'll then want to save your wand charges for escapes.

- Frank

[buzzkill]

Why should not killing enemies be such a frowned-upon concept? Most of the time it's too easy as it stands, sure, but don't tell me you've never gotten a thrill out of sneaking past a big dragon or a horde of demons so you could snatch away some precious item on the floor.

Some enemies should be avoided, but when avoiding enemies in-mass, in a hack-n-slash game, becomes the preferred strategy then it's obvious something is broken. There's a *big* difference between stealthily sneaking past a dragon (which is how the game should work, and which I'm thinking an experienced diver wouldn't even consider), and 0% fail TO, 0% fail destruct, pick up the remaining artifacts.

Avoidance is the preferred (winning) strategy because it costs you nothing to employ. Fighting things involves risk and uses consumables. Avoiding things is less of both.... and there are so many cheap and easy fail safe escapes. Why does TL cost roughly the same as a teleport instead of 10x as much???

When avoidance becomes so easy that novice characters can get exceptional gear, game after game after game, then it would kinda be silly not to.

That being said, any game when pushed to it fringes by exceptional players can be broken and beaten. But with V, you don't it seems you don't really need to push at all. A basic understanding of the game is all you need to throughly exploit it. Again, not a problem in and of itself in a single player game. But since V is the standard, it really should work better.

[fizzix]

Some enemies should be avoided, but when avoiding enemies in-mass, in a hack-n-slash game, becomes the preferred strategy then it's obvious something is broken. There's a *big* difference between stealthily sneaking past a dragon (which is how the game should work, and which I'm thinking an experienced diver wouldn't even consider), and 0% fail TO, 0% fail destruct, pick up the remaining artifacts.

Avoidance is the preferred (winning) strategy because it costs you nothing to employ. Fighting things involves risk and uses consumables. Avoiding things is less of both.... and there are so many cheap and easy fail safe escapes. Why does TL cost roughly the same as a teleport instead of 10x as much???

When avoidance becomes so easy that novice characters can get exceptional gear, game after game after game, then it would kinda be silly not to.

That being said, any game when pushed to it fringes by exceptional players can be broken and beaten. But with V, you don't it seems you don't really need to push at all. A basic understanding of the game is all you need to throughly exploit it. Again, not a problem in and of itself in a single player game. But since V is the standard, it really should work better.

I don't think V is nearly as broken as you make it out to be. IMO, the only broken mechanic is *destruct* not removing artifacts, and that's easy enough to just not abuse in your own games (I don't do it.)

The only classes with 0% fail TO are mages and priests. The rest of the classes have at least a 5% fail with wands. When failure can mean death, 5% is huge. This isn't broken, it's still a risk. If monsters are moving twice as fast as you, just nonchalantly TOing them isn't always an option, and sneaking up on them to get a chance to TO them before they awaken is still risky, and it puts them awake somewhere else on the level. If you're not careful some Nexus Q might teleport you right to them.

I've mentioned weakening _destruct in that it gives a monsters a saving throw. If they pass they get TO'd somewhere else instead of removed from the level. I don't really think TO should be weakened (beyond having it also affect items, which I'm fine with) unless we want to weaken monsters overpowered summoning attacks. That's fair then.

[Nick]

IMO, the only broken mechanic is *destruct* not removing artifacts

I like the O system of *destruct* not affecting vaults. Makes 'em scary places.

[Timo Pietilä]

I agree totally on #1, aside from basic consumables,
I also agree on #2, pretty much entirely.

Newbies discussing...

Game is not broken. Extreme divers can dive because they can dive. Newbie trying that same gets killed. Not everyone dives even if it would be possible.

If any of the suggestions made in last five messages get done game would change to something unplayable to anyone enjoying exploration or anyone that is new to game and doesn't know which items to collect. Not fun for non-divers any more than those that dive.

TO is one of the main escape methods. You need to know when to use it and how to make it useful. Items at floor are good to have without "guardians" (unless you make them all white icky things). I wouldn't want to face my billionth orc just to get some potion, that's just boring. Same with drops. If I need to always kill stuff to get something game turns to killthemall game. Boring.

If you want to make game more diver unfriendly just remove preserve mode. Lost artifact is then lost artifact. Divers either adapt to situation where they need to use something else or they do not dive. OTOH Skilled player does not need artifacts, so that would be only slight slowdown.

Create more interesting levels with more vaults and less pits. That stops or at least slows divers for a while. Boring level is boring level no matter how deep you encounter it. Monsters are boring. Forcing people to kill everything is boring. Removing their capability to play deeper than where every monster is safe kill is boring (IE. avoiding monsters made harder). Vaults and loot are interesting. Developing character is interesting.

[PowerDiver]

Some enemies should be avoided, but when avoiding enemies in-mass, in a hack-n-slash game, becomes the preferred strategy then it's obvious something is broken.

I avoid more enemies than most people, and I just checked that I killed over 4600 monsters in the current comp. That's plenty even for a hack-and-slash game. Avoidance is not the problem one would assume from reading the comments in this thread.

Make the game more difficult by removing diggers/stoneToMud, weakening missiles, change magely healing from 15% to a fixed 8 hp, etc and you will make the game harder both for diving and for not diving.

I don't see how the game can ever be balanced against diving so long as you refuse to tell newbies the rules. If someone has a chance to survive without knowledge of monsters, someone else who is skilled and has knowledge is not going to be challenged under the same other circumstances. Step 1 is to remove the idea of monster memory and consider accurate in-game descriptions to be an in-game manual.

[Timo Pietilä]

I like the O system of *destruct* not affecting vaults. Makes 'em scary places.

I think that has been on and off on future vanilla planning. IMO destruct is too easy method to clear vaults. Earthquake too. Mass banishment. Banishment.

At least for greater vaults.

[PowerDiver]

I think that has been on and off on future vanilla planning. IMO destruct is too easy method to clear vaults. Earthquake too. Mass banishment. Banishment.

At least for greater vaults.

NPP has a solution, all vault objects are carried, but I don't really like it. When a hound runs away with a 50 lb chest something is wrong.

Destruction and earthquakes should delete artifacts. Banishment could be changed to be interpreted that the same magic that takes away the monster's equipment and drop takes away what it is standing upon. The only thing that isn't clear to me is teleport other. Doesn't it make things too easy if the items are teleported out of the vault but remain on the level?

[Derakon]

TO teleporting items is better than the alternative; at the very least it means that after you've "cleared" the vault you then have to go explore the level to find all the gear you teleported out of it, while dodging all of the (now awake) monsters you TO'd out while teleporting gear.

[PowerDiver]

TO teleporting items is better than the alternative; at the very least it means that after you've "cleared" the vault you then have to go explore the level to find all the gear you teleported out of it, while dodging all of the (now awake) monsters you TO'd out while teleporting gear.

I disagree that it is obvious, but you may well be right. I remain unsure.

Should TO get all items in the path or just those under monsters? If the monsters are capable of carrying items, should it go into their inventory after teleport?

I'm thinking that wherever a monster is teleported, an item under it should go to the same spot. Since the monsters aren't smart enough to guard the loot, the only thing I could think of was to put it in their inventory.