Exploring with no light

[bron]

I'm trying to duplicate the feat from http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=2628 and I'm remembering just exactly how annoying it is to explore a level without a light. Admittedly this is a mercifully rare event for most people, and it is certainly reasonable for it to be annoying. But in fact it is a lot more annoying than I think it should be. I admit I'm not really expecting the maintainers to go to much trouble for this case. But I figure it can't hurt to ask.

Two things that make no sense to me that I think would be nice to change:

(1) Right now, the game does not "remember" the location of found objects. This seems inconsistent. If I see, say, a Short Bow while carrying a light, a "}" character is placed on the spot, and that character remains on that spot even after I pass on and the spot is returned to darkness. However, if I'm walking in the dark, and I get the "You feel a Short Bow" message, I do not get the character placed on that spot, even though I know it is there. It seems to me that to be consistent then either the player without the light should also get the persistent "}", or else the player with the light should have the "}" go away when the area is returned to darkness. The reason this is a problem is because when exploring without a light you get tons of "You feel a wall" messages, and it is remarkably easy to miss that single vital "You feel a Wooden Torch" message. Having the treasures be displayed would greatly increase the ability to notice that you've already stumbled across what you were looking for.

(2) Right now, you don't get any information about stairs in the dark. It seems that since the game lets me feel, e.g. a (small) potion, I should be able to feel a (presumably much larger) staircase. Note that the stairs *are* useable: if I hit "<" or ">" and there happens to be a corresponding staircase on the spot I'm standing, I do take the stairs. But I do not get any indication that the stairs are in fact there.

[Pete Mack]

I agree with this. I also think you should get one adjecent wall (in hallways) mapped for free when blind. If I'm going to follow a hallyway, I'll keep my left (or right) hand on the wall at all times.

Nevertheless, it's not much of an issue, since I always carry ?Recall.

[buzzkill]

Without a light source in the dungeon, you're screwed. I think the game is all too generous by letting you discover items simply by walking over them. I wouldn't object to a search (or perception %) being necessary to locate items on the floor, however I agree that the location of 'found' items should be remembered. Staircases should be obvious. You would either fall down it, or trip on it.

I like Pete's idea of mapping (at least one) adjacent wall. I'd still like to smack my head into a wall once in a while.

In addition, burnt torches should be much more common in the dungeon (and also easily squelchable). Even monsters with infravision need light and therefore torches, maybe with just a few turns of light, should be fairly common. Also, if you have the means to light a torch, shouldn't you be able to start a small fire by burning equipment (arrows), or (flammable) potions. Maybe it wouldn't light a whole room, but it should be enough to cast a spell or read a scroll by.

[Derakon]

How about this: if you bump into a wall, then move into an adjacent tile, then any walls that are adjacent to you and the wall you bumped are automatically mapped.

As for burning items: that's getting a bit too NetHackish IMO. How would you plan on presenting that UI?

[Pete Mack]

How about this: you can be left-handed or right-handed in birth options, and whichever you don't choose is available for keeping on the wall...

Naah. Derakon's algorithm is reasonable enough. Now to find somebody who cares enough about blindness to implement it.

[bron]

Unfortunately, I have to agree that it is somewhat generous of the game to let you automatically "feel" objects in the dark. I can't object to the idea of needing to "search" to find an object on the floor. Although, I think in this case it should be automatic to find the object after a search, because things just lying on the floor are not hidden, unlike traps and secret doors. But if this restriction is put in place, then in return any found objects definitely need to be noted on the map.

Actually, I guess I feel that if objects on the floor have to be "search"ed for in the dark, then in return we should get *both* Derakon's "put-your-hand-on-the-wall-you-just-bumped-into" partial auto-mapping suggestion, and the found objects being noted on the map. Then you could just turn auto-searching on, and it would take roughly the same amount of game time to explore as it does now, but the process would make more sense.

But it all seems like too much trouble to change to code to do all that. Just noting the placement of objects and stairs doesn't seem like a big change. Admittedly, it makes things easier than they are now, while the other proposal keeps the difficulty roughly the same. But this is a pretty unusual case to spend much time worrying about.

[Hariolor]

I'd be all for making darkness even more dangerous than it already is (and it is currently highly lethal). However I also feel like another compensating factor should be introduced: say, sconces/braziers than can be lit, providing a large radius of permanent light in the room.

[Pete Mack]

I'd be all for making darkness even more dangerous than it already is (and it is currently highly lethal). However I also feel like another compensating factor should be introduced: say, sconces/braziers than can be lit, providing a large radius of permanent light in the room.

If you really care about this kind of thing, you can play UnAngband or NPPAngband. In either game, you will eventually get a chance to read your scroll of recall.

Of course, in V I generally carry a reliable source of illumination sufficient to read a single scroll. (an artifact light source and/or wands/rods of Light and/or a PLITE weapon.)

By and large, I don't run out of light, ever...

[buzzkill]

By and large, I don't run out of light, ever...

It's good to be Pete Mack . The movie "Darkness Falls", actually an autobiography.

[Pete Mack]

Scrolls of Recall at the start of the game pretty much eliminate the problems of running out of food and light. It certainly eliminates the risks of Green Glutton ghosts and potions of salt water, along with silver jellies and the like.


I suppose if I played more ironman, these problems would come up more often.

[Atarlost]

I'd like to make light dangerous and exploring in the dark with infravision a viable choice. Maybe have light increase the wake chance for monsters in LOS slightly and in light radius a great deal, and reduce or eliminate the ability of most monsters to see players in darkness. If you also give most intelligent monsters torches (or rather light radii) then exploration in darkness becomes an integral part of a high stealth strategy. And scrolls of darkness become somewhat valuable. I suppose we can introduce some other useless and mildly annoying scroll if preservation of early game flavored junk is important.

[Magnate]

I'd like to make light dangerous and exploring in the dark with infravision a viable choice. Maybe have light increase the wake chance for monsters in LOS slightly and in light radius a great deal, and reduce or eliminate the ability of most monsters to see players in darkness. If you also give most intelligent monsters torches (or rather light radii) then exploration in darkness becomes an integral part of a high stealth strategy. And scrolls of darkness become somewhat valuable. I suppose we can introduce some other useless and mildly annoying scroll if preservation of early game flavored junk is important.

Hasn't quite a lot of this been done in O or FA under the "unlight" brand? I think this started in S with Leon's desire to enable burglars to work without light, but it never quite got to a really playable stage. ISTR that O/FA then took it a bit further, but never got round to checking them out.

[Nick]

Hasn't quite a lot of this been done in O or FA under the "unlight" brand? I think this started in S with Leon's desire to enable burglars to work without light, but it never quite got to a really playable stage. ISTR that O/FA then took it a bit further, but never got round to checking them out.

Yes, that's right. Bahman had Unlight as a specialty in O, but wasn't entirely happy with it; I tweaked it for FA (and actually put the tweaked one back in my unofficial version of O, despite not wanting to make gameplay changes). It's basically ability to see in the dark, RDark, stealth bonus and being harder to hit when you're on a dark grid, and reduction in light radius if you're using a light. It's definitely playable, and maybe a bit overpowered.

[bron]

By and large, I don't run out of light, ever...

Yes, yes, of course. But you're missing the point. I'm talking about a situation where I *deliberately* walk down into the dungeon without any light (or anything else for that matter). Telling me I should be careful not to ever run out of light isn't helpful. OTOH telling me that the development team isn't going to waste its cycles working on this rarely encountered case isn't particularly helpful either, but it is something I can sympathize with

[Atarlost]

See, that's exactly what I'm not talking about. What I'm thinking of is something where you can't see in the dark, but shutter your lamp anyways because you detected something nasty nearby that doesn't see well in the dark and you don't want it to shoot or summon or breath or whatever at you, which it will do if it sees you.

Unlight is something where you play the game without light, but get to see all adjacent tiles and read scrolls and stuff anyways. I'm thinking something where you put your light away for specific tactical reasons and do without the benefits of light for that time.