Has anyone proposed changing the way # of blows is handled?

[PowerDiver]

Are there any variants where there is a significant difference in max blows for different weights? E.g., an endgame rogue gets 5 blows with most weapons. What if he could get, say, 8 blows with a dagger? Would that be good, bad or indifferent? Has anyone here experimented with this sort of thing?

[Magnate]

No. No one has ever proposed changing the way # of blows works. Ever. You are the first.

LOL!

To the OP: it really is worth doing a teeny bit of browsing before starting threads like this. As others have said, there has been a *lot* of discussion.

[Speusippus]

LOL!

To the OP: it really is worth doing a teeny bit of browsing before starting threads like this. As others have said, there has been a *lot* of discussion.

Yeah, you're right, clearly no one wants to talk about the topic anymore.

[Speusippus]

I thought I did a search before posting the OP, but my memory often betrays me, so after the last two posts I figured I must have been mistaken.

But then I did a search: http://angband.oook.cz/forum/search.php?searchid=774806

And I do remember now. I did do a search--that very search. And nothing comes up.

I mean I guess there are other phrases I could use for finding threads about "number of blows" than "number of blows" but I confess nothing immediately came to mind.

And perhaps buried in one of those irrelevant looking thread titles is a relevant discussion, but that's four pages of irrelevant thread titles. That's a lot more than "a tiny bit of browsing."

So I posted.

Apologies for the inconvenience I caused by doing so.

ETA: Though I do see now that I missed a relevant link about halfway down the first page: http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthr...t=number+blows

[Magnate]

I thought I did a search before posting the OP, but my memory often betrays me, so after the last two posts I figured I must have been mistaken.

But then I did a search: http://angband.oook.cz/forum/search.php?searchid=774806

And I do remember now. I did do a search--that very search. And nothing comes up.

I mean I guess there are other phrases I could use for finding threads about "number of blows" than "number of blows" but I confess nothing immediately came to mind.

And perhaps buried in one of those irrelevant looking thread titles is a relevant discussion, but that's four pages of irrelevant thread titles. That's a lot more than "a tiny bit of browsing."

So I posted.

Apologies for the inconvenience I caused by doing so.

Ok, I take it back - I assumed you hadn't searched, and that was wrong. I share your disappointment that the search function is quite rubbish. Often threads wander off their title topic, but any half-decent search should have found posts containing "number of blows" and led you straight to them, rather than giving you four pages of rubbish.

In summary, there are lots of ways to change the current blows system. One is to go to O-combat, which is unlikely. Another is to move to fractional blows, i.e. amounts of energy-per-blow which result in not having a whole number of blows per 100 energy (so anything from 51 to 99 energy per blow, for example). This is a lot simpler to implement than O-combat, and may well appear at some point in the 3.1.x development series. Or so I understand.

[o-o]

Heavier weapons get much more useful further into the game. Once character STR and DEX start escalating, the number of blows goes up even with heavier weapons. In addition, heavier weapons have a much greater chance of causing criticals, which can escalate damage considerably. The criticals themselves (and various slays and brands) operate on the damage dice, which tend to be much higher for heavier weapons.

[Magnate]

Heavier weapons get much more useful further into the game. Once character STR and DEX start escalating, the number of blows goes up even with heavier weapons. In addition, heavier weapons have a much greater chance of causing criticals, which can escalate damage considerably.

Um ... not really. You're thinking of O combat, where dice and criticals generate most of the damage. In V the additional damage from criticals, or higher base dice, is easily eclipsed by the plusses to-dam from stats, weapon, rings etc. etc. So extra blows (available from light weapons) are all-important.

[ewert]

He did say "further into the game". Don't know if the formulae have changed since 3.05 but according to those formulae, there is quite a bit of difference between a 5lbs weapon and 40lbs weapon in critical hits. Both in the number and the strengths of those critical hits.

And the escalation of the damage is true too, since if you can get a supert crit hit, it triples the base dmg again, on top of slays / brands. So let's say MoD 5d8 with x3 brand and x3 critical, that is 9x 22.5 or a massive 202.5 average base dmg. With a measly 1d6 spear you would get 31.5. A difference of _171_ damage. <5lbs weapons don't have realistic chances of ever getting 3x crits though, so 2x only really, which would mean 21 avg or 181.5 damage difference in favour of the heavier weapon bit over half of the time with criticals and 114 difference the rest of the time. The MoD will also critical probably almost twice as often, or in absolute values maybe 17-20% vs maybe 10% for spear. Talking end game stuff.

So, lets say 17% crits half-n-half for MoD, that is worth about extra +24 per hit from crits and +19 from base dmg. Spear gets about +1.75 per hit from crits. 4 hits vs 5 hits with +34 extra for heavier weapon gives, with all other +dmg mods the same, a break even point of +136 extra damage required for the weapons to have same damage.

Okay that is with MoD and having a x3 slay on it, so granted a pretty extreme example. Nevertheless, I don't think I have seen any dumps with +136 to damage in V, but I guess there can be. But with a warrior and the extra blow, 5vs6 hits even higher required +dmg to break even... The weight of MoD is actually worth more to damage than the extra base dmg, sort of ....

edit: forgot the straight +5 +10 +15 etc. increases from crit hits, those will just mean the cut off points goes up yet again for heavier weapons vs. more hits at end game with lighter weapon...

[Magnate]

Okay that is with MoD and having a x3 slay on it, so granted a pretty extreme example. Nevertheless, I don't think I have seen any dumps with +136 to damage in V, but I guess there can be. But with a warrior and the extra blow, 5vs6 hits even higher required +dmg to break even... The weight of MoD is actually worth more to damage than the extra base dmg, sort of ....

You can make any case if you choose the right numbers. A MoD is 33% heavier than *any* other weapon, and 60% heavier than most. In the endgame it's the x2 slay (evil) that matters, not the x3s. Warriors cannot get 6 blows with any weapon heavier than 24lbs, which rules out MoDs and other heavy weapons. With a less extreme example your figure of +136 to-dam would suddenly drop to under +50, which is easily achievable with Fingolfin and a single =dam (assuming the other ring to be speed).

I was not arguing that light weapons are better than heavy weapons. I was merely pointing out, to someone who appeared to be fairly new to this long-running debate, that the combat system in V is skewed in favour of light weapons, because of the additive nature of to-dam bonuses. This means that the advantages of heavy weapons' extra base damage and greater critical damage, while not negligible, are far less significant than they are in other combat systems (O is the usual comparator, as it was designed specifically to address this problem).

Given that players can reach the end of the game without necessarily having the stats to get 5 blows with a 25lb weapon, quite a few people feel that heavy weapons don't become advantageous early enough.

[ewert]

Yes as I said it was an extreme example. For warriors though, the whole matter is irrelevant if he could get to 6 blows with the heaviest weapons, yes? 5vs6 is still more favorable to the heavier weapon than 4vs5 which was the message I tried to convey.

Well not arguing about anything, just trying to find the real numbers behind it all. Always better with real numbers in hand. And yes some people finish the game prior maxing stats, then again for those people it is mostly just making do with what happens to come along, as they are usually the diving AND speed-completing players (I dive but take my time in the end, so am maxed etc. and try to find best things). This method of playing greatly penalizes the heavy weapons, because you can get the extra blows from light weapons so much earlier and easier than from the heavier weapons. But as a facet of the game, true, not arguing about it just saying it is only A facet of the system.

As a math exercise I am tempted to compare a "realistic" leisurely strolling at 98 quest for a good slay evil weapon vs. lighter weapons. Just tempted. =P Hmm maybe a quick peek at comparing the above calcs with just x2 slay evil (Sauron = ring of acid, byebye ). Lets call it the "Hunt for the MoD of Slay Morgoth". =P Strangely, this is only matter for warriors (5vs6 hits) and rogues (4vs5 hits) ...

Lets assume the char gets about 10% crit from +hit and level. We will compare a slay evil MoD vs. slay evil flail. 5vs6 and 4vs5 hits. Made a spreadsheet (am bored, 7 hour train trip just started ). It would seem on a non-slay opponent the base dice and weight (crits) of MoD equals +21.09 extra dmg per hit, on slay opponents 40.84 extra dmg per hit.

And now to put those into perspective, the MoD against non-evil in the hands of a rogue, the "weakest" case: the rogue needs +76 or higher bonus to damage. Certainly doable, even could say "easy" in the context (looking for extreme damage at end game with no hurries to kill Morgoth). However against evil opponents, wham, you need a whopping +147 to surpass the 5hits vs 4hits with MoD. The straight up extra dmg from crits affects the calculations quite nicely too. The warrior against evil? Ouch, 187 bonus dmg required to surpass the MoD. No way doable, is that?

Maybe there are mistakes in my spreadsheet. But I didn't see any on double checking.

So definitely in the end-game, a MoD with any slay is nigh-impossible to beat with a max hit# weapon for those for whom it matters (rogue, warrior). Even straight up without a slay it is not easy, but it is doable. Branding rings vs. +dmg ring is a non-issue if you can get a proper brand (acid for Sauron and any MoD may be a no-brainer).

Doing the calcs have given me a new perspective on the MoD atleast. I'm definitely keeping MoDs now for melee characters, if only for Sauron with acid ring if no super weapons happen (playing randarts mostly). =P

[Hariolor]

Ok, stupid question:

If what ewert says is true, then I have to wonder if the damage calculation in the weapon info screen takes into account critical hits (I suspect it does not)?

If crits are not included in that calculation, then I'd also wonder if, say, a 1st level ranger really benefits more from using his 1 blow/round broadsword than from selling it for a 2 blow/round rapier or main gauche?

[Pete Mack]

Yes it does. That's why damage numbers rarely are rarely integer or half-integer.

[Magnate]

Doing the calcs have given me a new perspective on the MoD atleast. I'm definitely keeping MoDs now for melee characters, if only for Sauron with acid ring if no super weapons happen (playing randarts mostly). =P

How many MoDs do you find?? In ten years of playing angband I've found maybe one MoD, ever. In all the randart sets I've ever generated when testing and debugging, an MoD shows up maybe once every three sets, and never more than one.

You really ought to rebase your spreadsheet using a more findable weapon, say an executioner sword or a lochaber axe. Something the like of which you can expect to find every game.

(Even brigading all of MoD, SoS and BoC, I still don't think they appear often in average games.)

[Pete Mack]

You find them every time you go below dl 70 or so. The trouble is that only the very best ego types (top 3) are actually worth anything, or at least that was the case before branding rings were introduced. MoD holy avenger or +2 attacks is a fantastic weapon for paladins.

[PowerDiver]

How many MoDs do you find?? In ten years of playing angband I've found maybe one MoD, ever.

You really need to spend more of your time in the depths. I typically find multiple MoDs in a winning game.

If you dive slowly enough to collect endgame quality kit before you reach DL 70 and then rush through the final levels your experience would be entirely different.