Net Angband: alpha testing

[d_m]

Is there a way to resize anyterm. It's currently full screen width but only about half of this is used, the rest remains blank, and only about half the height of the screen. It would be nice if there wasn't so much wasted space.

I'm trying to figure that out. I haven't found an obvious way, although it may be a case of finding the right #defines and changing them.

[Zababa]

It occurred to me today that NetAngband would be a perfect place to implement and test supply and demand pricing in the shops. Supply and demand would be based strictly based on bought/sold ratio of each particular item and the cumulative totals at the end of each game would be added to the server's previous totals and this 'pricing structure' would be carried into each new game regardless of the user. *Necessary* items that become prohibitively expensive could have their rarity tweaked to be found more often in the dungeon (I don't know if this would become necessary).

I know I've brought this up before (without success), but with the advent of NetAngband and multiple users and styles of play, it may just be workable. Of course, it would (probably have to) be optional.

I like this idea very much. I am very interested in all kinds of statistics and there is a lot of thing going on in Angband of which I would very much like to see some long term statistics from various players.

But as far as i understand what NetAngband is, it is not going to be a solution for this. Anyway, thanks d_m to NetAngband. I still cannot launch it under the link d_m posted. Where do I have to create an account to play it?

[buzzkill]

I still cannot launch it under the link d_m posted. Where do I have to create an account to play it?

Really?

Click on the link. Press [c]. Press [enter].

[PowerDiver]

That was my intent. I figured prices for common consumables would rise (quite dramatically) to the point where it would become more worthwhile to sell them than use them, at which point the price would regulate. Likewise, seldom purchased items values would fall to the point where they just might be bought. At the very least it would help establish standard pricing and help tweak dungeon rarity.

In most economies, prices are determined by production cost rather than utility, although things get more complicated due to monopolies and transfer costs. If you follow the utility pricing route, you should expect a single average arrow to cost more than an average lance or plate armor. Is that really what you want?

[buzzkill]

In most economies, prices are determined by production cost rather than utility, although things get more complicated due to monopolies and transfer costs. If you follow the utility pricing route, you should expect a single average arrow to cost more than an average lance or plate armor. Is that really what you want?

No. Prices are determined by supply and demand, little else. Production cost figures into this supply/demand equation as a matter of necessity (and is further influenced the supply/demand of raw materials, supply/demand of labor, supply/demand of technology, or of any resource). Items won't be produced if demand will not sustain a sale price that covers the production costs.

In a functional economy, this disparity would be compensated for by increased production (of arrows). I suggested tweaking dungeon rarity precisely because no such productivity exists in Angband. If enough arrows are found in the dungeon, there will little need to buy them in town. Why every bow wielding enemy doesn't drop (2d4) arrows is beyond me.

The problem with Plate Armour (in the Angband universe), is that it's fairly useless. There's little demand for it. The price is artificially high because the shopkeepers are idiots with unlimited amounts of gold and have no motivation to turn a profit. If plate armour actually had to be produced (rather than simply conjured forth by the RNG), it wouldn't be. It just wouldn't be cost-effective.

This is fun, though I feel that we're somehow bordering on politics again .

[Pete Mack]

@buzzkill
Eddie just meant that supply is determined by ease of production. If you try to charge 100GP for an arrow, someone else is guaranteed to make a cheaper one. Sure, arrows should probably be more common in the dungeon, but using 'demand pricing' in net angband will just drive up the price of arrows unreasonably.

This is so obvious, that there's already code in stores.c to ensure an unlimited supply of arrows at 1GP.

[PowerDiver]

This is fun, though I feel that we're somehow bordering on politics again .

Now I wish I hadn't said anything.

Item generation is fixed according to mystical rules until Tak changes it. Requesting chages to item generation is a different discussion.

We are talking about whether stores should price items according to utility, given an item generation scheme. That's the only thing that can be determined by tracking purchases and sales in net angband.

Let's stick to gameplay. My deep chars are going to buy all of the ?phase and average arrows in town, so long as the price is not astronomical. That means that starting chars sharing the same stores with my deep chars will not be able to afford to buy arrows or ?phase, either because the price is astronomical or because I already bought them out at merely "ridiculous" prices.

Do you want starting chars to be unable to buy average arrows and ?phase ?

[buzzkill]

Do you want starting chars to be unable to buy average arrows and ?phase ?

No. I'd like them to be more commonly found in the dungeon so that they need not be constantly bought by new and experienced characters alike.

Without adjusting the rarity, both phase door and arrows would likely became very expensive, enabling a low level character to find a few (easy enough, even at DL1) and sell them for a handsome price, thus enabling him to purchase many other (less desirable, more reasonably priced) items to insure his survival. The system works.

BTW, I don't have any delusions that anything similar to this is going to be implemented (in V, NetV or any other variant). I'm just trying to make my point (that this type of pricing could work). But at the same time, I don't know why there is so much resistance to the idea itself. In the end, it's not all that much different than power based pricing. It's just desirability based pricing.

[Hariolor]

No. I'd like them to be more commonly found in the dungeon so that they need not be constantly bought by new and experienced characters alike.

Without adjusting the rarity, both phase door and arrows would likely became very expensive, enabling a low level character to find a few (easy enough, even at DL1) and sell them for a handsome price, thus enabling him to purchase many other (less desirable, more reasonably priced) items to insure his survival. The system works.

You do realize that if this operated in anything even remotely resembling real-time, you'll have a constantly fluctuating market in which the value of any given item will change from moment to moment (or day to day, or whatever). I therefore propose that this change be accompanied by a new building "9" which is a real-time exchange market in which commodity futures can be traded against the dungeon markets.

So now that that's settled, the question becomes - where do we set the put/call spread so that "9" makes some money, while the lazy yet savvy adventurer can still loaf around trading ?phase futures against 1d6 (+0/+0) arrows until he's amassed a tidy fortune?

[Pete Mack]

I don't think you are likely to get agreement on this. The demand for (say) Holy Avenger with low dice (or big dice) in any one game is never more than 1. The supply is always more than one. So by your theory, Holy Avengers have less value than ?Phase Door. But that's not real life. In real life, there will be one or two producers of Holy Avengers (selling at a high price to cover costs), and any number of producers of ?phase door, selling at commodity costs. The stores already simulate fluctuation in supplies by random production on everything except arrows, which are consumed in numbers too large for the game to account for.



The low level character needs phase door and arrows even more desperately than the high level character. No matter the price, he won't be willing to sell these things. For low-level characters, the game becomes much more like ironman than anything else.

When things like !CCW, ?Phase, Arrows, and even ?Recall become priced competitively for characters who come back every trip with 20K gold, there's no way that a lowlevel character can afford to buy more than a handful, much less afford to sell any "extra" he may find in the dungeon.

Without some concept of supply-based (competitive) pricing, there's no way to avoid this problem.

Edited for clarity

[PowerDiver]

In the end, it's not all that much different than power based pricing.

I think power based pricing is bad too.

[Zababa]

Really?

Click on the link. Press [c]. Press [enter].

Now it works. I had troubles to connect yesterday. It could have something to do with the firewall settings at work, they may not have port 7777 opened.

[Nick]

This is fun, though I feel that we're somehow bordering on politics again .

Oh no, it's much worse than that. Instead of Angband - game of shopping we're getting Angband - game of microeconomic theory.

I mean, seriously, we have big bad warriors going into the dungeon and then coming back into the shop and trying to scrape together a few coins to pay Ga-nat the Greedy for scrolls. What's wrong with "Give me the scrolls, or I'll cut your head off"? I propose that the bigger your sword, the cheaper the merchandise and the more the shopkeeper grovels.

[buzzkill]

When things like !CCW, ?Phase, Arrows, and even ?Recall become priced competitively for characters who come back every trip with 20K gold, there's no way that a lowlevel character can afford to buy more than a handful, much less afford to sell any "extra" he may find in the dungeon.

I'll admit recall is a problem, but a singular one. There is not a suitable substitute for recall, which is absolutely necessary for entertaining gameplay. Without any changes, it would turn the game into much more of an ironmanish experience, which while it's not for everyone, might not be such a bad thing.

!CCW, Phase, Arrows WILL be sold rather than bought by players that need GP if the prices for these items are high enough. Players won't be able to afford not to. There are substitutes for these items, that while possibly not as effective, will be more reasonably priced.

If pricing for a particular item gets entirely out of control, making early survival impossible, then dungeon rarity would HAVE to be tweaked to simulate real-world productivity.

You can't figure production costs into anything in the Angband universe. I'm working on the assumption that all things cost the same GP to produce, 0 GP. That's just the magical nature of Angband.

[Astaroth]

This is cool , testing right now!