What is "balance" anyway

[konijn_]

A wounded dragon (cool)? That would reduce breath damage too, right?

Yes, that would reduce breath damage

Questions like that is probably why I never win .

Ah, but they increase the odds of finding a lady friend

T.

[buzzkill]

I don't think that we're that far apart on our views. If ancient dragons only appear as often as RDSM or boots of speed than that's fine, probably even fun. But I hardly think that such a rare occurrence would have much of an impact, and if you turn up the frequency, then you have a different problem.

I enjoy meeting uniques. I always try to kill them, even if it's obviously not likely to happen. They are like little Morgy's to me, since I never get to meet the big man. At some point in the past, I even suggested an XP or drop bonus for killing a unique the first time you encounter it (for added motivation). More OoD monsters, even dramatically OoD, if sufficiently rare could be a good thing.

[Magnate]

I have seen everything. Those items are not very interesting, even that they are powerful. Because almost everything has been given power boost we now have much flatter artifact selection.

No we don't. The artifact power spectrum is almost identical to what it was before - the 'thancs are notably more powerful, and are now used, but that's about it. Yes, a couple of dozen others are slightly more powerful, but only slightly. The choices between artifacts have not suddenly become boring.

[Magnate]

Sounds like Timo wants more strategic choices in the game. Things that require long term planning rather than being opportunistic. Challenge games are mostly strategic. However when you complete one, you don't need to think so much to do it again. After a while this is boring. Low turncount games are tests of tactical skill, with a fixed strategy of diving to look for opportunities. Again, boring for someone who likes strategy.

I think the question of balance is how to make the game more interesting for strategy people without annoying the tactical people.

Angband isn't a strategy game, it's a tactical game. If you want a strategic roguelike, try Crawl. (I don't think you can do strategy in a roguelike without a persistent world.)

Strategy and tactics aside, I think there is a fundamental tension between making the game exciting for someone who has played thousands of times, and making the game consistent and enjoyable for someone who has played fewer than a hundred times. There is a very firm tradition in Angband that instadeath is bad - it's one of the main reasons it was forked from Moria, so that poison resistance could be introduced to enable surviving AMHD breath.

That said, OoD monsters are not instadeath, and I fully support Timo's request for more open-ended OoD generation. ISTR d_m did something with this quite a while ago, which doubled the possible OoD range IIRC.

I think a lot of Timo's dislikes started with the JLE changes (late 2.9.x). Suddenly there were many more powerful ego items, increasing the TMJ problem. The natural development of a collaborative project is to add and tweak rather than to take away, so I think Takkaria is pretty much the only person who could get away with severe enough surgery to make Timo happy again. If he did so, he might make the game a lot less interesting for a lot of other people.

Personally, I have no problem with things being "smoothed" and balanced. In fact I think it's all upside. Perhaps I am very boring.

[Delver]

I'm going to echo konijn_ a bit here, though I believe my actual perspective is different.

A game is balanced when there are no dominant strategies; strategies that are no brainers and every player performs them every single game unless they are masochists.

It's easier to see what balance is by seeing what unbalance is. Case in point, torches vs. lanterns in earlier version of Angband. If lanterns give more light than torches, are trivial to obtain before entering the dungeon, and flasks of oil are common in the dungeons, when would have anyone not gotten a lantern before entering the dungeon unless they are explicitly playing a challenge game? Torches were effectively junk. Ways to fix this would have been to nerf lanterns, boost torches, make lanterns hard to acquire enough to justify their power, or remove torches. Good thing this seems to be addressed in the newest releases.

So, I consider a set of features to be balanced when there is no clear choice among them, but the choice depends on the current situation or the player's own preference (e.g. I may prefer maxing my AC over my damage). Choosing one thing over another should force a player to adapt his tactics, but there should be no choice that would punish a player.

It is for this reason that I dislike ideas about designing races and classes to be harder or easier than each other, though I seem to be in an extremely small minority. I want a race/class to be different to play than another, but I don't want a race/class that is necessarily harder to play than the other. Sure, make the differences between races and classes more extreme, but I don't want High Elven Rangers and Dwarven Priests to be the True Combos while everything else is comic relief.

I mean, if we want to make some race/class combos easier than others, why can't we just cut to the chase and put in an explicit difficulty setting?

[shawnosullivan]

So, I consider a set of features to be balanced when there is no clear choice among them, but the choice depends on the current situation or the player's own preference (e.g. I may prefer maxing my AC over my damage). Choosing one thing over another should force a player to adapt his tactics, but there should be no choice that would punish a player.

It is for this reason that I dislike ideas about designing races and classes to be harder or easier than each other, though I seem to be in an extremely small minority. I want a race/class to be different to play than another, but I don't want a race/class that is necessarily harder to play than the other. Sure, make the differences between races and classes more extreme, but I don't want High Elven Rangers and Dwarven Priests to be the True Combos while everything else is comic relief.

I mean, if we want to make some race/class combos easier than others, why can't we just cut to the chase and put in an explicit difficulty setting?

i think delver's comments are pretty spot-on.
i also really like vanilla as a smooth, well-balanced, and carefully crafted game, and applaud most of the recent changes that have been made towards those ends - hell, they've been interesting enough changes to lure me back into playing V fairly regularly after a hiatus of ~10 years. i'd really just like to see the classes/races be both better defined and more balanced (and it sounds like there is some productive work being done on that front).
and if you're looking for unbalanced, crazy gameplay (which i agree can be plenty of fun) - there's loads of variants out there....

[Pete Mack]

I would agree with Timo wrt to artifacts being too common, with one caveat: if they become rarer, please un-nerf stat potions!

[Magnate]

I would agree with Timo wrt to artifacts being too common, with one caveat: if they become rarer, please un-nerf stat potions!

I think this is simply a result of ego items being a bit too common, since 3.1.0 - once you tone down the frequency of ego items, artifacts automatically become less common.

[Timo Pietilä]

No we don't. The artifact power spectrum is almost identical to what it was before - the 'thancs are notably more powerful, and are now used, but that's about it. Yes, a couple of dozen others are slightly more powerful, but only slightly. The choices between artifacts have not suddenly become boring.

Not change around 3.1.1 -> but change from Frog-knows to 3.1.2.

Much flatter. Much.

Remember that I have been playing this game almost as long as it has existed. My memory has old versions in it too.

Timo Pietilä

[Timo Pietilä]

Angband isn't a strategy game, it's a tactical game. If you want a strategic roguelike, try Crawl. (I don't think you can do strategy in a roguelike without a persistent world.)

Strategy and tactics aside, I think there is a fundamental tension between making the game exciting for someone who has played thousands of times, and making the game consistent and enjoyable for someone who has played fewer than a hundred times. There is a very firm tradition in Angband that instadeath is bad - it's one of the main reasons it was forked from Moria, so that poison resistance could be introduced to enable surviving AMHD breath.

That said, OoD monsters are not instadeath, and I fully support Timo's request for more open-ended OoD generation. ISTR d_m did something with this quite a while ago, which doubled the possible OoD range IIRC.

I think a lot of Timo's dislikes started with the JLE changes (late 2.9.x). Suddenly there were many more powerful ego items, increasing the TMJ problem. The natural development of a collaborative project is to add and tweak rather than to take away, so I think Takkaria is pretty much the only person who could get away with severe enough surgery to make Timo happy again. If he did so, he might make the game a lot less interesting for a lot of other people.

Personally, I have no problem with things being "smoothed" and balanced. In fact I think it's all upside. Perhaps I am very boring.

There is nothing wrong with lots of different items as long as they really are different. Problem with Angband is that this is a simple game with relatively simple rules which reduces the possibility of variation. For example introducing more vaults did not introduce more excitement because more vaults are not generated, and there now is more boring similar ones and difference-gap between those is lessened (basically only difference is what they look like). Same with items. Variation does not come from lots of powers in single items and then make a lot of those items. You need few powers that differ from each other in fewer selection of items. Variation. Combination. Not "I can get everything I need from what I have in 100 different ways, I just need to select the best of those 100 ways".

Less is more in this case.

JLE made some good changes, but not all of them were good ones. For example adding giant uniques just added more boring uniques to hunt down before killing Morgoth.

There has been mistakes made in many versions of this game, but some of those are apparent only after you have played with them quite a long time. For example removing elvenkind shields and introducing aman cloaks caused no-contest shield selection. So elvenkind shields were re-introduced, but aman cloaks stayed. That allows too easy access to many high-resists.

To give an example of good change: shields of preservation. That was a good add because it differs from rest of the shields so much that it didn't reduce variation. If you are going to add something you need to make it like that.

For most cases if you add something you need to remove something. Game has quite good balance as it is but it could contain more variation. There are some things that are bad and should be changed or removed: branding rings, ammo branding spell, too powerful ego-ammunition, enchant-scrolls in shops, too weak and common artifacts (like Crisdurian), artifacts that resemble too much ego-items and are weaker (Hammerhand, Gondricam), useless ones (Elvagil), useless amulets (resistance, sustenance, devotion, Evenstar) (etc).

Remove those or change those. If you don't remove then *change* them not just add some powers here and there. Go crazy with them.

Make artifacts more rare, not more common. Even weaker ones. Every time you find an artifact it should be a exciting moment. Dlvl 1 rarity 2 boring Elvagil just creates more TMJ by making everything else you find there junk, and you managed to make game a bit easier than it was before. Of course removing useless items also makes game easier because it makes all the useful ones more probable to appear.

Game has become too easy. Really. It used to be an achievement to win, now it just requires some consideration of what to collect and little bit patience if you lack some of the key abilities. You are guaranteed to get everything you need to face anything into game in relatively small amount of time because there is so many items giving you those abilities. That also makes those items similar to each other. You should be able to survive everywhere, but not face everything (unless playing like a borg).

There is also more difficult to determine change in UI that makes things easier and reduce excitement: you know now more about your surroundings than before. That makes game easier, but it also reduces your "sense of wonder" about what things can do. There is less "Smog of War" than before. If you try Frog-knows you pretty soon understand what I'm talking about, but Frog-knows UI still is not what you want modern Angband to have. There should be a way to incorporate that same feeling in modern Angband too, but I can't say how to do it.

[Hariolor]

There is less "Smog of War" than before. If you try Frog-knows you pretty soon understand what I'm talking about, but Frog-knows UI still is not what you want modern Angband to have. There should be a way to incorporate that same feeling in modern Angband too, but I can't say how to do it.

I believe there is a ticket now for working on changing ESP to work in radius intervals and be cumulative. This might go a long way towards bringing back some 'wonder', as the "fog of war" will remain an issue for longer.

More generally, as someone who spent a good fifteen years running D&D campaigns back in the day, I would say the following about balance:

A balanced game is one where, with an absolutely "average" character, it is possible to succeed with adequate planning, skill, and a bit of luck. Characters who are lucky in terms of the RNG should have an easier time, but rarely should feel "well that was easy". Conversely, some characters will get screwed by the RNG, and while the game should still be winnable, it would be quite an achievement to do so. This, theoretically, makes the game exciting for newcomers, and challenging for veterans.

I would agree with some of the thoughts above that suggest using Randarts or Ironman to change the game. V currently does a pretty nice job of being balanced for new players (after the initial learning curve - which new documentation will solve), and still can provide challenge for players who are accustomed to winning regularly. Randarts even brings back some of the excitement that is lost after having seen the whole artifact pool.

As to the question of specific items being interesting, or certain tactics being no-brainers - I would say it's impossible to avoid this, and should not be avoided. In AD&D, everyone wanted a vorpal blade, or a holy avenger, it's how the game worked. The trick was to not let things go all monty-haul because then the game became absurd. In 'bands, the RNG and some appropriate coding will provide that balance. I do agree that currently artifacts are far too common, and ego items in general seem to be. This is an acknowledged issue, and I think once the volume of ego items is reduced (hopefully dramatically), artifacts and powerful egos will seem exciting again.

In short V is pretty well "balanced" as it is, from a gameplay perspective. Individual races, classes, and options allow for customization of difficulty. Aside from sometimes boring level generation results, replayability is still fairly high - as long as the player is willing to adopt a new strategy or change the options he/she is using. What V currently could use more of is perhaps variety. But that's not the same as balance at all.

[Magnate]

When he's not doing awesome things like the quiver and the 256-colour patch, d_m is working on a big level generation patch too.

[Magnate]

Not change around 3.1.1 -> but change from Frog-knows to 3.1.2.

Much flatter. Much.

Remember that I have been playing this game almost as long as it has existed. My memory has old versions in it too.

Timo Pietilä

This is interesting. I started playing at 2.9.0, and there were about 125 artifacts then (all the ones except what JLE added). I had assumed that they had all been there since frog-knows, but perhaps not. Can you remember how many artifacts are in frog-knows, and who added the others?

Much as I have declined to delete artifacts until now, I am a fan of the "less is more" principle of gaming. (I prefer the 17 races of Dominions II to the 60-plus of Dominions III, for example.) When Takkaria has made the changes he intends to make to ego-item generation for 3.1.2, I'll have another look at the artifact set. (Now that randarts have their depths and rarity calculated, they seem to be less common than standard artifacts.)

[Timo Pietilä]

This is interesting. I started playing at 2.9.0, and there were about 125 artifacts then (all the ones except what JLE added). I had assumed that they had all been there since frog-knows, but perhaps not. Can you remember how many artifacts are in frog-knows, and who added the others?

I can't remember how many of them were in Frog-knows, because I never found all of them, and they were not in external edit-files. Less than 125, I suppose. At least most of them were quite a bit more rare. Also powers of the items were different. There was no acid or poison brands, elec-brand was x5 brand, chaos resist gave resistance to confusion effect (making BalanceDSM and ChaosDSM endgame quality items) and chaos had 600 damage cap. Items were less...how to say this..."cluttered" with powers. This included both ego-items and artifacts.

Some of the "flatness" is caused by added ego-items. Those combined with changed artifacts causes overall flatness in selection.

Now there is 136 artifacts IE 11 more than 2.9.0 and very many of them were given more powers flattening the selection.

Whole gaming philosophy was a bit different too: there were deliberate junk items (shards of pottery, non-monster skeletons) without anybody complaining about them and you were not expected to win the game. No item stacking also made things quite a bit different. Much less items were found in drops, especially in summoning explosions and high-reward pits and there was in contrast more floor-items and vaults played bigger role in gaming. You usually saw at least one GV in one game, so you saw approx one CGV in four games. Now it can take a lot of games before you see a good GV. You also usually now have better gear *when* you find one.

Also region between 2500 and 4000 (or something like that) was more difficult because there were no low-speed boost items like Amulets of Trickery. If you found an GV you were very tempted to clear it up in hope to find RoS or BoS or one of the speed-booting artifacts.

[PowerDiver]

there were deliberate junk items (shards of pottery, non-monster skeletons) without anybody complaining about them

I certainly knew people who complained, and the squelch patch was written by someone who couldn't stand them.