Missile weapons overpowered or not

[Bagplant]

I've said elsewhere that I don't think missile launchers are overpowered, except maybe in the early game. I do think that branded ammo is overpowered, largely due to the double multiplier effect. Maybe the extra multiplier should be applied only to the ammo damage, and not the launcher bonus, i.e. damage of:

M(SA + L)

Where M is the launcher multiplier, S is the slay multiplier, A is the ammo damage (base die plus damage bonus) and L is the launcher damage bonus. If this proves to be too much of a nerf, damage bonuses on ego ammo could be bumped up as needed to compensate.

[tummychow]

OK, that makes a little more sense. That might actually be pretty good. However, just how heavily would you use magic devices instead of spells you already know? I mean, if you knew the spell already, would there be any common reason to use the magic device instead? If not, there is not much point to this modification. (I used to spam rod of detection every time I entered a new dlevel with my rogue. Now I stop doing that and just use the basic detection spells because my magic skill levels are high enough.)

[Whelk]

I don't think that would be advisable; it takes very little effort to ID objects (especially due to ID by use). This change would either have no effect or too much.

I think he meant that it would be more effective if you were capable of casting the spell yourself without the magic device, via a spellbook, and had learned it. So for instance, a ranger who knows the Magic Missile spell would be able to do more damage with a wand of magic missile than, say, a paladin, who doesn't (and can't) know the Magic Missile spell himself.

I'm guessing the logic behind it is that you know the intricate details behind the spell and how it works, and so would be better at wielding it, even through a magical device, compared to someone who had no personal knowledge of the spell and was using the device to cast a spell they don't personally know.

[tummychow]

As far as magic devices go... What if you got a bonus to damage if you know the spell it casts?

I don't think that would be advisable; it takes very little effort to ID objects (especially due to ID by use). This change would either have no effect or too much.

Having a spell to make ammo really difficult to destroy would be nice; preferable over branding the ammo. (I know I would prefer it. Saves my precious enchanted ammo.) How about incorporating the brands into more of the artifact launchers and high-level egos instead?

[Magnate]

I'd like to offer the idea that mages (and priests, as the other pure magic-using class) should receive a bonus on clvl 25 that allows them to cast 2 spells per turn &/or use magical devices twice per turn. Maybe earlier even, to encourage magic users to consider alternatives to long bows at the start of games.

That's a very nice idea, but slightly out of scope of the current reworking of magic devices. I will bear it in mind next time there's a bit of class rebalancing work though.

[miyazaki]

Well, I am working on this, and it's partly going to reflect what you want, but the relevant stat is INT, not WIS. Magic devices *will* scale up in damage, according to magic device skill (which is directly tied to all of clev, race, class and INT). At the top end they will do more damage than they do now (though not as much as launchers, which Takkaria will almost certainly tone down). There will also be the possibility of "critical hits" with devices for more damage, as there is currently with both melee and missile damage.

Btw Wisdom is already useful for non-priests because it affects your saving throw.

I'd like to offer the idea that mages (and priests, as the other pure magic-using class) should receive a bonus on clvl 25 that allows them to cast 2 spells per turn &/or use magical devices twice per turn. Maybe earlier even, to encourage magic users to consider alternatives to long bows at the start of games.

[Magnate]

I'd like to see magic devices deal damage based on the character race, class and wisdom (and possibly character level).
This would make wisdom much more useful for non-holy characters and mean that magic devices scale with character level as well.

Well, I am working on this, and it's partly going to reflect what you want, but the relevant stat is INT, not WIS. Magic devices *will* scale up in damage, according to magic device skill (which is directly tied to all of clev, race, class and INT). At the top end they will do more damage than they do now (though not as much as launchers, which Takkaria will almost certainly tone down). There will also be the possibility of "critical hits" with devices for more damage, as there is currently with both melee and missile damage.

Btw Wisdom is already useful for non-priests because it affects your saving throw.

[Steven]

As far as magic devices go... What if you got a bonus to damage if you know the spell it casts?

[PowerDiver]

I fail to see how this is a bad thing. This is one of the main tactics in angband. Don't let the baddie hit you.

Fine, but then you should be doing much less damage to compensate.

You'd still use missiles against Mim if they did 10% of melee, so 10% would not be underpowered from a gameplay perspective.

The other problem is the monster AI. Monsters are hopeless when it comes to using ranged attacks. The player's ranged attacks need to be nerfed to compensate.

I think that reducing missiles to be on par with current devices would be fine.

All that said, I don't have that much problem with the current system, except that ego ammo should not ever be for sale in town and there should be no branding spell.

If I was changing things, all missile multipliers would affect *only* base dice. Arrows should start at 1d9 in general store and go up from there with many more extra dice ammo drops. Presumably all ego ammo would have extra dice.

[shawnosullivan]

Ranger is special case and should remain so. Because ranger is very good with bows I recommend tweaking other aspects of ranger. I think ranger and rogue spell lists should be swapped, with minor tweaks in detection where rogue should remain better. Ranger should be closer to warrior than rogue IMO.

this sounds like a good idea to me. there's no reason that the ranger class should excel with ranged weapons AND offensive magic when compared to the rogue. ranger as a warrior with some detection magic and somewhat better ranged weapon skills seems about right.
this is probably well beyond the scope of any potential tweaks at hand, but introducing an archer class, as many variants have done, might not be a bad idea. reduce the ranger's ranged weapon skill, boost their magic skills, and have the archer class with full ranged weapon benefits and maybe a little evasive magic. as it stands, the classes seem to need a little more distinction and flavor, in my opinion...

[Timo Pietilä]

I think they are overpowered from a gameplay point of view, because you can do almost as much damage as melee, without having to worry about the effects of monsters getting close ie. reduce stat, reduce exp, drain charges etc. etc.

I fail to see how this is a bad thing. This is one of the main tactics in angband. Don't let the baddie hit you.

Weapon power comparison Belthronding does around 621 damage with branded ammo of both arrows hit.

Assuming you have found also good extra blows weapon:

x * 7 = 621
x = 621 / 7
x = 88.7 points of damage / blow.

Assume Scythe of Slicing of extra blows (+2) + brand-ring = 60

88.7 - 60 = 28.7

Assume that you have enchanted that to +8 to dam, that leaves 20.7 for rest of the gear.
20 from STR (18/220), Cambeleg +8, Elessar +7 = 35.

20.7 -35 = -14.3 * 7 = -100.1

Melee wins by -100.1 damage.

Of course finding such a good weapon is a rare case, so I suggest that also finding such a enormously powerful missile-weapon is made equally rare, if not rarer.

BTW, that is not even close to best Sauron-killer I have used. Best was Scythe of Slicing of Fury (+20,+24) (+2) with acid-ring. That one aggravated, but who cares when you are already fighting the intended target. With critical hits I got from that Sauron died in about ten rounds. And because I was moving at speed +30 and Sauron at +20 that did mean that Sauron did get about 8 turns to wonder what hit him. Using bow instead of melee wasn't even considered.

To balance ranged weapons with melee you really need to either reduce their damage

Why?

output or give more monsters the ability to do those things from a distance and also reduce the chances of them doing so when you are up close (so they melee you instead).

Again, why?

Another advantage with ranged weapons is that an extra shot can double the damage that you deal each turn. It can also mean that you can shoot once and move/heal/escape as well, which isn't possible with melee.

That is something that missile-weapons have that melee doesn't have, but the instant you use something else than shoot you use full turn, so it isn't that big an advantage.

Also I like the newer brands of ammo/weapon that you get because it creates more interesting choices about what to keep. After all each different ammo type takes a different slot in your inventory.

I don't see anything interesting in different ego types there are now. No choices, at least not much choices.

If the newer brands make the game too easy then I'd rather see the game made harder in other ways rather than reduce the possible strategic choices.

So you reduce tactical choices in order not to reduce strategic choices? What strategic choices are there? Do I keep fire brand instead of acid brand? What good is in that? To me that sounds like Too Much Junk -choice.

Another way in which ranged weapons are overpowered is that they can do much more damage than the best magic devices.

That is magic device problem. A good bow is a good weapon against single target, a magic device should have advantage over it in that it affects more monsters or that it hits always without range penalty.

Good magic devices seem only to do around 125 damage at a push. This means that it is better for mages to use a ranged weapon than say a rod of acid bolts in many situations, which somehow doesn't seem right.

That I agree. Offensive magic devices are mainly junk in most part of the game. There should be better ones than there are. But that isn't really missile weapon problem, that is magic device problem.

[konijn_]

No : a,b, b2 melee
Maybe : c,d,b2 ammo

Real men dont use missiles.

T.

[nppangband]

Another suggestion:

Right now, the multiplier is applied after all of the other to-damage bonuses, so the biggest way to change this is to reduce the to-damage plusses on arrows, or apply the multiplier before some of the bonus damage is applied.

One wasted part of missiel weapons is the bonus damage from good and great hits. They almost never happen because the probability of good/great this are tied to the weight of the weapon, which in this case is the actual arrow/bolt/stone.

Has anyone considered reducing the "typical" damage from an arrow, but increasing the probability of the occasional good, great, or *great* hit multiplier from missile weapons. It does make sense that there is potential for tremendous damage from ammunition if it hits the sweet spot of a creature (brain, heart), but not every time like it is now.

[TJS]

This always left me scratching my head as well. But in the case of the mage, I think it would be better to allow them to be better than any other class at using magic items. Perhaps if mages got a base percentage increase to magic item damage equal to their level, or twice their level (either 50% more or 100% more by level 50). I've no idea if this is really balanced, I just want to see mages acting like mages and warriors acting like warriors.

I'd like to see magic devices deal damage based on the character race, class and wisdom (and possibly character level).
This would make wisdom much more useful for non-holy characters and mean that magic devices scale with character level as well.

The perhaps you can have to-hit penalties on ranged weapons for less strong character which would be counteracted by their better use of magic devices which provide a similar function.

[Deranged Archivist]

Another way in which ranged weapons are overpowered is that they can do much more damage than the best magic devices. Good magic devices seem only to do around 125 damage at a push. This means that it is better for mages to use a ranged weapon than say a rod of acid bolts in many situations, which somehow doesn't seem right.

This always left me scratching my head as well. But in the case of the mage, I think it would be better to allow them to be better than any other class at using magic items. Perhaps if mages got a base percentage increase to magic item damage equal to their level, or twice their level (either 50% more or 100% more by level 50). I've no idea if this is really balanced, I just want to see mages acting like mages and warriors acting like warriors.