Your views wanted on artifacts in V

[Psi]

If the palantir is really considered the best after the one ring we might need to tweak a bit the various artifact rarities .....

The key word you are missing is 'special'. Only the One and the Palantir are special artifacts in your list.

[Magnate]

THE ONE RING 0
THE PALANTIR 5

If the palantir is really considered the best after the one ring we might need to tweak a bit the various artifact rarities .....

I said the top *special* artifact - as in, of the lights, rings and amulets. That said, Vilya is probably rarer.

[bebo]

I said the top *special* artifact - as in, of the lights, rings and amulets. That said, Vilya is probably rarer.

Oh, sorry, I didn't know they were classified this way - i thought for "special" you meant the more powerful artifacts

[Magnate]

Oh, sorry, I didn't know they were classified this way - i thought for "special" you meant the more powerful artifacts

No worries. It's to do with a bit of marvellously hackish code. Basically anything that isn't weapon or armour is currently a "special" artifact. Think "special needs".

[fizzix]

To be honest I was really just teasing Eddie. I consider aggravation to be so bad that anyone prepared to use the Palantir deserves everything on it - including the ability to use other aggravators without further penalty.

It does turn into a powerful randart, which is fitting as it's the top special artifact bar The One. Once curses have been overhauled, all cursed artifacts will turn into cursed randarts, so the Palantir will always have *some* drawback ... in the meantime, it can stay as is. Because it aggravates, I disagree with Eddie's assertion that every winner uses it.

the palantir is not cursed. I've had winners with randart palantirs that have no drawbacks.

[Tatami]

I've had winners with randart palantirs that have no drawbacks.

I've never won but every randart palantir I find has been badass, with no agro.

[Psi]

Magnate is talking about future releases of the randart code. I suspect aggro may well count as a 'curse' at that point and the randarrt palantir will have that or another 'curse'.

[Atarlost]

I'd make drain_exp drain at a rate proportional to your actual XP so it can be placed on early items and have an appropriate effect while also having an appropriate effect on late items. Maybe something like 1%/50 normal speed player turns.

[Magnate]

Magnate is talking about future releases of the randart code. I suspect aggro may well count as a 'curse' at that point and the randarrt palantir will have that or another 'curse'.

Thank you. That is entirely my point. I consider aggravation to be a curse, so in future the randart-palantir will be treated as cursed. At the moment the randart code neither treats it as cursed nor preserves the aggravation. Consider it a seasonal promotion.

[Timo Pietilä]

First question is that this isn't discussed at all in r.g.r.a, which seems to be pretty bad thing, second is that Takkaria seem to have passed his maintainership to Magnate. Otherwise I don't see how he can add changes to nightly builds just like that. CAN I DO THAT SAME?? Third is that these changes all except one seem to make game easier.

Then to the list:

Carlammas +4 is too much. +3 is enough.

Ingwe I would accept if you remove INT bonus from it (it used to be just WIS)

Dwarves can still be +3, no need to add PVAL

Evenstar is still junk, just get rid of it completely, after all it is new addition and nobody misses it.

DSM changes are good. They are rare enough that they need to be rather special

Belegennon is good without +4 to dex. It has rPoison which makes it useful and it is better than any elvenkind with resist poison, so all you need to do is make it less rare.

Hithlomir still junk

Thalkettoth isn't junk now, no reason to give it any additional bonus. In fact I use it almost all of my games at least for some time.

Thorin DOES NOT need any further weakening. It already lost resist confusion, making it lose resist sound is BAD. This is like removing +5 from Ringils speed bonus. You just don't do it.

Celegorm change is good. Resist blindness is relatively rare and this makes this useful.

Thranduil has been moved too deep. Either move it back or make telepathy helmets more common in ego-items. This is top artifact for priests to find at stat-gain (no detection method for hounds, except very rare detection rods). I'll suggest moving telepathy ego more common.

Hammerhand still junk, and will stay junk as long as it has AGGRAVATE -flag. Aggravation is huge penalty. Enormous. At least for skilled player.

Holcolleth doesn't need additional bonus, it is good as it is.

Luthien +3 is enough no need to add more than that.

Eol is still junk

Cammithrim change is OK

Paurnimmen added bonus is too strong. Unless you make it dlvl 75 or so item.

Pauraegen Free Action should not exist. FA is banned from Paur*, you need to add something else. Make it hold life instead.

Wormtongue probably would be useful in some games with that change, OTOH in modern angband BoS seem to be more common and by the time you find those you probably have better item already.

....

Rilia change is too strong. Make it less. Rilia is very good as defensive swap as it is, as a weapon that change does't make it useful.

Belangil 3d4 dice is too much. You need to change type of the weapon to justify that change. Just added to_hit and to_dam are enough.

Condricam is still pretty much junk. Just glorified defender with weak attack ability. It doesn't even have FA, so it actually loses to Defender-weapons. As a weapon it is still junk. Make that change FA then it could be useful for someone sometimes. Not likely but it is possible.

Aglarand point is that you need to enchant it to make as good as it can be. 8d4 dice with branding ring and +5 to speed already makes it useful, so no need for change.

Anguirel +2 to blows is too much. OTOH it does have aggravate, so it probably still is junk. You make it tempting, but not useful.

Elvagil is pretty much still junk. Almost all westernesse -weapons beat this. Could be useful very early, but I would vote for removal.

Forasgil is made too early. It is in fact very good weapon because it is so light. No need to be that early.

Careth Asdriag doesn't need to rival Sting. Keep the low to_hit and to_dam, then I accept.

Osondir used to be such a junk that I don't have bases of comparision. I never used it, so this might be good change. It is not made as überweapon, but made useful.

Til-i-arc is double-branded weapon. Extra dice is a bit too much.

Lotharang rDisen is not good. rDisen should be rare, and Lotharang is common. Make that something less useful like rChaos.

Avavir. Don't know what to say about this. You potentially made it überweapon. Only reason not to use it was that it was too heavy. It was junk, after that it definitely is not, but is it _too_ good is something that needs to be playtested.

Totila I think only thing that makes it junk is that you find it too late in dungeon. Make it more common and that should solve the problem with it.

Firestar good change. Like that. Maybe too big to_hit and to_dam change.

....

Turmil IMM_COLD is too much. Make it have slay evil and it is useful.

Gothmog blows is a joke. Anyway it doesn't need change. It aggravates, but other than that it is already very powerful weapon. Added blows would make it too powerful.

Umbar, x7 Xbow is too much, but it also aggravates which makes it useless. So probably still junk.

Haradrim Blows and Shots is WAY too strong. You need to find some other means to change this aggravating junk useful. It would still be junk for most of us even with that change because of aggravation.

[Magnate]

Hi Timo, welcome (back) to Oook.

First question is that this isn't discussed at all in r.g.r.a, which seems to be pretty bad thing

You got me. Sorry about that. I use Oook from home and Usenet from work, and work has been really busy lately, so I've fallen behind with rgra. But ...

second is that Takkaria seem to have passed his maintainership to Magnate. Otherwise I don't see how he can add changes to nightly builds just like that. CAN I DO THAT SAME??

You can if Takkaria gives you commit access to rephial, yes - that's what commit access is for. He hasn't passed over the maintainership at all. He's given commit access to about a dozen people who work on different parts of the game. Artifacts is something I've chosen to work on. Nightly builds are test builds - anything in them could be changed (or changed back) at any time. It's how we test things like this. All views will be taken into account before 3.1.2 is released - and Takkaria will make the final decisions, not me or any other developer.

Third is that these changes all except one seem to make game easier.

Well, that's a little bit of a generalisation. You say yourself elsewhere in your post that (in your view) many of the aggravating artifacts remain junk - so they haven't made much difference. But yes - I have in general tried to make the 'junk' artifacts more attractive rather than less. That does indeed mean that the game overall is infinitesimally 'easier'.

I won't comment on all your comments, but rest assured I have read them all and thought about them - thanks for the detailed thoughts. In general it seems you have fewer issues with the existing artifacts than Eddie and others who consider far more of them to be junk. OTOH, you clearly have insurmountable issues with aggravation, and nothing can be done about that until curses are overhauled and aggravate works differently (something we are all looking forward to).

On Thorin, if the consensus is against weakening it (further) I'd be interested in views on what would make other shields compete with it for the endgame - that's the goal here, to encourage choice. No artifact should be a no-brainer. On Thranduil, I suggest that making ESP more common on egos is a step in precisely the wrong direction (making the game easier). On Pauraegen there is clearly something I don't know - why is FA "banned" from Paur*?

Oh, and Gothmog was a mistake. I'd be interested in views on whether and how it could ever be made useful.

[PowerDiver]

On Thorin, if the consensus is against weakening it (further) I'd be interested in views on what would make other shields compete with it for the endgame - that's the goal here, to encourage choice. No artifact should be a no-brainer. On Thranduil, I suggest that making ESP more common on egos is a step in precisely the wrong direction (making the game easier). On Pauraegen there is clearly something I don't know - why is FA "banned" from Paur*?

Oh, and Gothmog was a mistake. I'd be interested in views on whether and how it could ever be made useful.

The way to make Thorin less obvious is to put its powers [like rSound] on other objects [but I disagree with there being any problem with no-brainer artifacts].

Paur* are meant to be designed not to be usable by mages, by the serious penalty to mage casters. I.e. designed junkish to half of classes. FA breaks that.

Gothmog was fine. I certainly used it as was. It is a swap weapon with big dice and an immunity, precisely the limited situation in which aggravation is playable.

[Timo Pietilä]

I won't comment on all your comments, but rest assured I have read them all and thought about them - thanks for the detailed thoughts. In general it seems you have fewer issues with the existing artifacts than Eddie and others who consider far more of them to be junk.

My opinion would be to get rid of many of the "junk" items. I didn't comment on items that are not changed, there are some among them that I do consider junk:

Himring, for example. I have used Hithlomir more often than Himring (because it doesn't have basic4). Celebrimbor is pretty useless, not entirely so, but usually by the time I find it I have better headgear. Arunruth is almost always useless junk by the time I find it. It looks better than it is, in most cases I have stored it at home and never actually used. Crisdurian? Does anybody actually use it? YAWeapon that looks better than it is. Theoden? ESP is nice, but by the time you find it you have something better, Gondolin/*slay evil* with ESP or ESP from other sources.

OTOH, you clearly have insurmountable issues with aggravation, and nothing can be done about that until curses are overhauled and aggravate works differently (something we are all looking forward to).

Aggravation is broken, yes. It isn't just negative stealth, it pretty much ruins one of the main tactic of the game which is to fight _when_ you want and _where_ you want, instead of letting monster choose that. Ruining that means that item must be good enough that you are willing to let that happen, and that means it must be very very good indeed.

OTOH if one item aggravates, then it doesn't matter if all of them aggravate, which makes improving aggravating items nearly impossible. If one item is not (quite) worth wearing/wielding, five of them may well be. That means that item being junk is a moving target. Make _one_ item that is good enough that anybody would use it and you make them all good enough that anybody will use them.

On Thorin, if the consensus is against weakening it (further) I'd be interested in views on what would make other shields compete with it for the endgame - that's the goal here, to encourage choice. No artifact should be a no-brainer.

Why not? Ringil pretty much is. The One usually is. Feanor nearly always is.

Anyway Thorin is not a no-brainer. If you are missing rConf, any elvenkind with it beats Thorin. If you have Gondor and enough STR and CON without it then most elvenkinds or preservation beats it. If you lack basic4 and have enough STR and CON (using Caspanion for example) Anarion, Celegorm, Elvenkind and even Resistance beats it.

Problem isn't that Thorin is too strong, problem is that both basic4 artifact shields are too weak to compete even with weak ego-items. Especially now that sustains are a lot easier to get and stat-draining is less common than they were in old days. Your change in Celegorm to have resist blindness makes it very valuable to spellcasters (except dwarfs). Give Anarion hold life and someone may consider using it sometimes.

On Thranduil, I suggest that making ESP more common on egos is a step in precisely the wrong direction (making the game easier).

No more common than getting Thranduil is now. Thranduil is very common, too common maybe. It is in many cases first item with ESP you find. That is bad, but _where_ you find it is not wrong, when you find it ESP is very useful and needed. That place is perfect for balance. If you remove Thranduil from there you need to compensate.

On Pauraegen there is clearly something I don't know - why is FA "banned" from Paur*?

Those are not supposed to be useful with mages. FA breaks that. Early mage should go without handgear or get the penalty. Mage is supposed to be hard to start, and easy at the end. Kind of opposite of Warrior.

Oh, and Gothmog was a mistake. I'd be interested in views on whether and how it could ever be made useful.

It is useful as it is. I have used it many times. In fact I think I have used it in every game I have found it. It makes very good damage, especially against dragons, and it gives immunity and it is light which means it can be used as swap without too bad penalty in weight. Only tricky part is to get rid of heavy curse it has so that I can unwield it when I need to be stealthy.

[Magnate]

My opinion would be to get rid of many of the "junk" items.

I'd rather make them not junk, if at all possible. I don't subscribe to the view that there are too many artifacts - at least, not immediately. It might make sense to remove one or two in the end, but I think more can be saved. (But this comes back to the curses point below.) Thanks for the additional views on those you think are (often) junk.

OTOH if one item aggravates, then it doesn't matter if all of them aggravate, which makes improving aggravating items nearly impossible. If one item is not (quite) worth wearing/wielding, five of them may well be. That means that item being junk is a moving target. Make _one_ item that is good enough that anybody would use it and you make them all good enough that anybody will use them.

Yes, you're spot on here - this is indeed a problem. I'm hoping that aggravation *will* be cumulative after reworking, so this problem will go away, and each aggravator will be considered on its own merits.

Why not? Ringil pretty much is. The One usually is. Feanor nearly always is.

Well, the One is of course supposed to be a special case. The other two both happen to have huge speed bonuses. Feanor I'd agree with you (but there are only three artifact boots, aren't there?), but plenty of people use weapons other than Ringil at the endgame if they have enough speed elsewhere. The thing about Ringil is that people usually find it before speed ring depth, which is why it's a no-brainer.

Thranduil is very common, too common maybe. It is in many cases first item with ESP you find. That is bad, but _where_ you find it is not wrong, when you find it ESP is very useful and needed. That place is perfect for balance. If you remove Thranduil from there you need to compensate.

Ok. Since ESP is the single biggest boon in the game (better than +10 speed IMO) how about we put Thranduil back to its former depth (meaning we don't have to move ego ESP) but make it quite a lot rarer?

Those are not supposed to be useful with mages. FA breaks that. Early mage should go without handgear or get the penalty. Mage is supposed to be hard to start, and easy at the end. Kind of opposite of Warrior.

Of course. I'd forgotten that. I quite fancy adding a pair of artifact mage gloves (alchemist's gloves), but I guess they'd better be deep...

[Timo Pietilä]

I'm hoping that aggravation *will* be cumulative after reworking, so this problem will go away, and each aggravator will be considered on its own merits.

Maybe have smallish aggravation range which is cumulative. Then one item does not cause such a havoc. Maybe also have it work like anti-stealth so that it doesn't always wake up everything. Or maybe aggravate only some monster class (like Orcrist aggravating orcs). Maybe make it kind of "ring of conflict" so that monsters that are aggravated do not care about tactics and charge at you so that if there is something in their way they attack it. That would make it mixed blessing. Draw hounds out of room? No problem, wear an item with aggravation. Want to get rid of Colossus? No matter, just wait that those orcs behind it kill it. Feeling that Greater Titan is too tough? Fight it in place where it blocks a way of many other monsters. You fight it and so do they.

Well, the One is of course supposed to be a special case. The other two both happen to have huge speed bonuses. Feanor I'd agree with you (but there are only three artifact boots, aren't there?),

Four actually (Thror, Dal-i-thalion, Wormtongue, Feanor) but those others are way way less powerful. Closest to Feanor is BoS +10. in fact Dal-i-thalion is borderline of being junk because it doesn't have speed bonus. BoS are not uncommon anymore, and even small speed bonus have quite a big impact in survival. Maybe make it +3 and give it SPEED?

but plenty of people use weapons other than Ringil at the endgame if they have enough speed elsewhere. The thing about Ringil is that people usually find it before speed ring depth, which is why it's a no-brainer.

It also is almost unrivaled in damage. +10 in speed means that you can use damage rings or Rings of Power. It is in fact very rare that you use something else than Ringil. Which reminds me: Ringil didn't used to have blessed-flag. For Priests that was *no* no-brainer at all in old days. If you had to decide between Aule + RoS +12 and Ringil and RoP Nenya, you usually ended up using Aule for 0% failure. Now it is almost always Ringil and Nenya.

Ok. Since ESP is the single biggest boon in the game (better than +10 speed IMO)

I wouldn't say that. At that point of the game +10 speed would be a huge deal.

how about we put Thranduil back to its former depth (meaning we don't have to move ego ESP) but make it quite a lot rarer?

There is still problem that you make ESP rarer. But I could live with that.