Your views wanted on artifacts in V

[Magnate]

Found Hithlomir, dumped it. I would certainly dump it any time I had elvenkind armor. This is conceivably useful as a swap, but swap armors are generally a bad idea. The player would be better off playing the lottery for useful elvenkind.

This implies that you don't consider rnether anywhere near as important as some other high resists (conf, chaos, sound I guess, maybe also nexus and disen).

I also dumped Celegorm without noticing the changes. I was playing a dwarf, so didn't notice rBlind. For non-dwarves this is non-junk in the mid game. In the end game, everyone should be assumed to be using the Palantir so it wouldn't help.

This attitude of "everyone will use this one item" is what prevents us from agreeing on any of this. Most people never FIND the Palantir, let alone use it.

[Magnate]

Gondricam remains junk. It's a defender lacking FA. The dex boost gives a chance at an extra blow, but its offense is too weak. If you want to do damage you use something else, and if you want defense you use something else. I dumped it for a 15 lb westernesse weapon without a second thought.

What do you use if you want defence? If Gondricam had FA as well, would you still use something else for defence?

I didn't notice a change on Elvagil, still junk.

Elvagil and Forasgil I didn't boost in terms of stats, but I made them depth 1 rarity 2 (or 3, I forget). The idea is that they drop much earlier now, and might be useful for a bit. They're never going to compete if they show up later, so I didn't bother trying to address that - to do so we need to implement the max depth thing.

Osondir has been beefed up, but is still junk. It is too heavy to get lots of blows with, and you certainly have much better offensive choice when you find it. In theory it should be useful to a spellcaster as defense, but my paladin was uninterested and I would have felt the same with a priest. Perhaps a mage or ranger could find it useful. It looks useful when you inspect the entry, but somehow it just wasn't.

Interesting. It's now a lot lighter (14lbs instead of 19). It also boosts STR and WIS, so the idea was that it would appeal more to priests or paladins!

I didn't find Til-i-arc, but looking at the entry it appears less useful than Osondir, and the same general argument that a minor boost on a heavy weapon is not enough to make it a viable offensive choice.

That's also interesting - some people thought that +2 STR and speed on Til-i-arc, along with the extra die, was too much.

Avavir has the same problem too.

This I was hoping would be popular: 18lbs down from 25 (so the 6th blow is possible for warriors), bigger +hit and dam and AC, and +3 speed.

Totila tempted me the way Osondir did, but after a while I realized it was just like old times. You think it ought to be useful, but you never use it.

I guess you don't consider small speed boosts to be as relevant as Pete does. Thanks for the feedback - I don't know how many people are playing with these yet, but it'll be interesting to see if your views are more widely shared on this than they usually are!

[PowerDiver]

This attitude of "everyone will use this one item" is what prevents us from agreeing on any of this. Most people never FIND the Palantir, let alone use it.

The question is not "most people" but "most winners", when talking about endgame kits. Perhaps you are talking about midgame kits, but that is not what I thought.

Before I started diving, all of my winners found the palantir, and I am pretty sure my wife finds the palantir with every winner.

[PowerDiver]

I assume Turnil changed, since I don't remember using it in the past and this game I used it as my favorite item for an extended part of the game.

That's it looking through the artifact list. These comments are just about what I noticed in 2 games, one to DL 50 and one winner. Presumably there are more things I didn't see or just forgot.

[PowerDiver]

If Gondricam had FA as well, would you still use something else for defence?

Sure, until I found a lighter [say <= 7 lb] defender or westernesse or gondolin. Maybe even then vs westernesse if I needed regen. But the whole point of Gondricam is that it lacks FA. At least, that's what I thought was the point.

[PowerDiver]

[QUOTE=Magnate;25969]This implies that you don't consider rnether anywhere near as important as some other high resists (conf, chaos, sound I guess, maybe also nexus and disen).QUOTE]

rNether saves a few hp and some exp, both easily replenished.

Conf, chaos, and sound save you from dying. Toss in rBlind for non-dwarves. Nexus saves you from stat scrambling and being teleported down a level. Disen allows you to melee disenchanters, including many troubling uniques. Even rFear is important for priests or paladins to be able to melee after tossing PB1. Compared to any of those, nether isn't even worth a footnote.

[Nightmarjoo]

How will changes (improvements) to artifacts effect randart games, or will they at all?

[Magnate]

How will changes (improvements) to artifacts effect randart games, or will they at all?

The net effect of the changes I've made to the standard artifacts is that about 15 are slightly better and one is slightly worse (or maybe two, I forget). The total 'power' of the artifact set probably increased no more than 1%. You will not notice any changes to randarts overall, unless you generate hundreds of randart sets and run them through a spreadsheet.

You will however notice some new properties appearing on randarts. Since I added a brand to an armour item, and +1 blows to another armour item (and +1 shots), you will now see these properties occasionally occuring on randart armour items. This isn't a direct result of the artifact changes, but separate code changes I made to keep randarts as consistent as possible with artifact.txt. As always with randarts, this means you'll sometimes see grotesque extremes, other times you'll get a bunch of drek. Any feedback is appreciated.

[Magnate]

The question is not "most people" but "most winners", when talking about endgame kits. Perhaps you are talking about midgame kits, but that is not what I thought.

Before I started diving, all of my winners found the palantir, and I am pretty sure my wife finds the palantir with every winner.

I think this is an issue specific to light sources - but then you said you find Isildur an awful lot, so perhaps not.

But yes, I am not focusing on endgame kits. I am looking at artifacts as a whole, throughout the whole game. The changes I made to the depth and rarity of the weaker artifact weapons ('thancs, Elvagil, Forasgil) doesn't seem to have caused them to litter the early dungeon levels - but they should on average be turning up earlier, and thus be more likely to be better than one's current ego.

I'm sorry you don't like the change to Thorin, but so far nobody else has complained - and if Thorin turns up in fewer winner dumps, I'll count that as a success.

(Now to get to work nerfing the Palantir ....!)

[bebo]

(Now to get to work nerfing the Palantir ....!)

I'm not sure I see the point in this - because of the aggravation, I never used it before the final battles; when I got to actually fighting Sauron and Morgoth, I already had everything that the palantir offered already covered (actually more often than not this happened even before I actually found the light source), so the only reason to bring it would have been the activation .... which I admit is really powerful, but not that necessary unless you are a warrior I'd imagine (which I was never able to take down to those depths anyway, so I'm just speculating here...).

[fizzix]

I'm not sure I see the point in this - because of the aggravation, I never used it before the final battles; when I got to actually fighting Sauron and Morgoth, I already had everything that the palantir offered already covered (actually more often than not this happened even before I actually found the light source), so the only reason to bring it would have been the activation .... which I admit is really powerful, but not that necessary unless you are a warrior I'd imagine (which I was never able to take down to those depths anyway, so I'm just speculating here...).

The palantir is too powerful in randart games because it often doesn't have aggravation. Putting a random activation on it will nerf it immediately, so this probably isn't too much of a concern, if you're heading in that direction.

If you are looking for an easy way to nerf it anyways, I suggest lengthening the recharge time by about 50%. Or make drain EXP actually do something instead of being the trivial cost that it currently is. Maybe about 10x stronger...

[JohnCW9]

I think this is an issue specific to light sources - but then you said you find Isildur an awful lot, so perhaps not.

But yes, I am not focusing on endgame kits.

I'm sorry you don't like the change to Thorin, but so far nobody else has complained - and if Thorin turns up in fewer winner dumps, I'll count that as a success.

(Now to get to work nerfing the Palantir ....!)

Consider this a complaint I dont like the change.

John

[Magnate]

The palantir is too powerful in randart games because it often doesn't have aggravation. Putting a random activation on it will nerf it immediately, so this probably isn't too much of a concern, if you're heading in that direction.

If you are looking for an easy way to nerf it anyways, I suggest lengthening the recharge time by about 50%. Or make drain EXP actually do something instead of being the trivial cost that it currently is. Maybe about 10x stronger...

To be honest I was really just teasing Eddie. I consider aggravation to be so bad that anyone prepared to use the Palantir deserves everything on it - including the ability to use other aggravators without further penalty.

It does turn into a powerful randart, which is fitting as it's the top special artifact bar The One. Once curses have been overhauled, all cursed artifacts will turn into cursed randarts, so the Palantir will always have *some* drawback ... in the meantime, it can stay as is. Because it aggravates, I disagree with Eddie's assertion that every winner uses it.

[Magnate]

Consider this a complaint I dont like the change.

John

You don't like the change to Thorin? Ok, that makes two of you - thanks for letting me know.

[bebo]

WARNING: long post

as it's the top special artifact bar The One.

Huh???? Now, my games might be just a freak accident of probabilities, but my findings up to today of the uber-rare artifacts are as follows (I'm going by memory here so this isn't 100% correct)

soulkeeper 2
razorback 1
mediator 0
bladeturner 0

boots feanor 1

bard 2
belthronding 1
xbow umbar 3

cloak tuor 0
cloak luthien 1

crown gondor 1
crown numenor 1

aule 2
eonwe 1
doomcaller 0
ringil 0
sting 1
zarcuthra 0
main gauche azaghal 1
anduril 2
ball and chain of fundin 0
deathwrecker 0
whip gothmog 1
great axe of durin 0
trident ulmo 0
glave pain 3

THE ONE RING 0
THE PALANTIR 5

If the palantir is really considered the best after the one ring we might need to tweak a bit the various artifact rarities .....