Idea: Buy monsterknowledge / get rumors

[Eagle]

I found this entry on depth 56 of this forum:

The main problem with *band is, that newbies need pretty much endurance to proceed because there are so many new and unknown monsters and uniques, the deeper you go. Many of them are extremely dangerous and you only will know that when you are almost or already dead.
Without enough perseverance people are likely to give up after several sudden deaths.

This had been one reason for me to play with save scumming for quite a long time until I had reached a level of reasonable knowledge (and a monster memory to remember this knowledge).

The game is still dangerous and I can't keep track of all the deadly abilities and breath attacks that any monster may have. Every time I start with a new char and therefore without any monster memory my heroes keep dying for unforeseen and daffy reasons.

A reply was that this isn't a problem but a feature of the game.
Both are true I guess.

If we want to lure more newbies into this game, shouldn't we give them a better change to survive the unknown?
So why not introduce a new money sink in the game. In which a player can buy monster knowledge in a store. The store should only sell unknown bits-and-pieces of a monster or unique. However not all information, of all the monsters, all the time. Maybe only 'scary' monsters which normally appear 2-3 levels deeper than maximum players depth. Like hand druj, radiation eye, Dreadmasters, Great Titans, Ancient Dragons and uniques. The price of this knowledge could be tied into the experienced gained for killing this monster, a formula already available in the code. So the higher the gain, the higher the price.

Perhaps we could also break the monster info down into several pieces, which the player must buy in this order to gain full pre-knowledge of the monster.

A) Basic information (price = half experience gain)
B) Defense information (price = experience gain)
C) Attack information (price = twice experience gain)

So full knowledge would cost 3,5x the experience a player would get if he/she killed the monster. (as an example)

Example for the Phoenix:

Basic information:
The Phoenix ('B')/('picture')
A Massive glowing eagle bathed in flames. The searing heat chars your skin and melts your armour. This creature is normally found on dungeon level 54. Killing this creature is worth xxxxx points for a xst level character. It may carry up to 3 good objects.

Defense information:
The Phoenix ('B')/('picture')
A Massive glowing eagle bathed in flames. The searing heat chars your skin and melts your armour. This natural creature is normally found on dungeon level 54, and moves quickly. Killing this creature is worth xxxxx points for a xst level character. It resists lightning and fire. It may carry up to 3 good objects.

Attack information:
The Phoenix ('B')/('picture')
A Massive glowing eagle bathed in flames. The searing heat chars your skin and melts your armour. This natural creature is normally found on dungeon level 54, and moves quickly. It may breathe plasma; about 1 time in 2. Killing this creature is worth xxxxx points for a xst level character. It resists lightning and fire. It may carry up to 3 good objects. It can bite to burn, bite to burn, hit to burn, and hit to burn.

Some info on the dices of the monster attack(s) would be cool too!


Apart from this system I think it would be nice to have a rumor source in which a player can be warned about monster he/she has never seen yet (free of charge). Without any actual monster information. If a player finds the rumor interesting, he/she can buy some monster info on it.
With a rumor source with valuable information in the game one could add some other flavor into the game to lure and catch new players. The first rumor a player should get is to find and kill Morgoth. A newbie doesn't even know why he is playing/diving/killing! Rumors that hint to what is found deeper are also valuable. Like hints towards the existence of Vaults, Pits, Stat. Potions, Types of Rings/staffs/rods etc.

PS. Buying information on Sauron and Morgoth should be *very* expensive.

PS.PS. As stated only 'scary' monster knowledge is for sale. A 'scary' monster is a monster that kills players a lot. There should be information available about which monster qualify. (because it's no use to spend money on a 'Lurker' for example)

[Mondkalb]

Appealing.

[Maupin]

I like this idea a lot. It would make Angband much more fair for newer players. I never really liked the "die until you learn" game progression mechanic, and in my opinion the game is already difficult enough for new players due to the finality of death.

[takkaria]

I like this idea a lot. It would make Angband much more fair for newer players. I never really liked the "die until you learn" game progression mechanic, and in my opinion the game is already difficult enough for new players due to the finality of death.

The real question is: give a player a choice between buying the stuff that they need to buy, and spending money in the hope they might find something useful, which one will they choose? Z used to have this 'loremaster' service and I only ever used it for quests and I wanted to know what I was up against. If you're just roaming the dungeon, then it's significantly more useless.

IMO. Bring the counterarguments. (This is where it would be nice to be able to gather stats on how people do stuff in the game and send them back automatically...)

[fizzix]

I like this idea a lot. It would make Angband much more fair for newer players. I never really liked the "die until you learn" game progression mechanic, and in my opinion the game is already difficult enough for new players due to the finality of death.

I think save-scumming is a pretty popular mechanic for new players. And it greatly changes the game. IMO this is a pretty bad thing, and convincing players that the game is fun without save-scumming is fairly important. There are many things that could help, and a more extensive monster memory is one of them.

However, I think most of this information should come for free. You should know that the Phoenix can breathe light powerfully. And you should have a rough idea of how much damage it will take off if you don't have light resistance. Similarly, lower level monsters with dangerous side effects should have those effects known. You should know that Umber Hulks gaze to confuse, without having to learn it first by dying to one. Maybe the only things that should be hidden in the monster info is the damage from melee and the hit points.

(disclaimer: I first won with save-scumming. The only player I know in real life that never save scummed also never came close to winning. And since his name was Ben Harrison, I'm pretty sure he played the game quite a bit and knew it better than most)

[Eagle]

The real question is: give a player a choice between buying the stuff that they need to buy, and spending money in the hope they might find something useful, which one will they choose? Z used to have this 'loremaster' service and I only ever used it for quests and I wanted to know what I was up against. If you're just roaming the dungeon, then it's significantly more useless.

IMO. Bring the counterarguments. (This is where it would be nice to be able to gather stats on how people do stuff in the game and send them back automatically...)

After the initial stage the player is basically a millionaire. (waiting for acquirement scrolls) Spending a few coins on knowledge of what evil lurks a few staircases down, seems a good investment too me. Even if it's just too know the 'look' of the bad guy on screen is valuable in itself.
The buy-monster-info-mechanism gives the inexperienced/unknowing player a change to know what he/she is up against. If he doesn't use it, he'll probably buy some info the next time.

Most importantly I think one should limit this option to the nastiest of nasty enemies. Especially the ones that cause instant death.

This scenario should be avoided:

Player sees a new monster with detect monster.
Player is interested and recall's monster memory.
"Nothing is known about it's attack"
Player isn't scared and enters the room.
It breaths, player dies.
Player thinks "What the ***! If I had known his attack I would have switch my resistances (or have walked away)"

In this case the player did nothing wrong. He took the time to check his surroundings, and based on the information available went for it. The result is a turn-off. You just can not avoid every unknown monster you encounter. (And using a rod of probing puts a player allready in sight of the bad guy). This finding out the hard way costs gamers.
In this little scenario, with the proposed shop, the carefull player can get back to town, and purchase some info on this new monster. That's an idea! Why not also sell monster info of 'seen' monsters of which the player has zero, or incomplete, information.

I'll say let's give newbies a fighting chance!
(Heck, I'll even buy certain monster info when switching to a new Angband version where I'll have zero monster memory)


The rumors can help to alert the player for free of possible instant deaths. On townlevel one could run into a battlescarred veteran. Instead of killing him he says (based on your maxDepth):
"Beware of the Phoenix! It dwells on dLevel 54. His breath is full of light that will blind your soul!!! Beware, I say. Beware!!!"

[d_m]

This is sort of like an idea that I talked about with Takkaria on IRC: have scrolls lying around the dungeon which give lore on a particular unique (or a small group of monsters) when read. It should probably be (mostly) depth-appropriate... scrolls detailing Huan or Glaurung would probably not be found on dungeon level 1.

Veterans could squelch or ignore these scrolls but newbies would (potentially) benefit.

I'd be willing to code this feature up if a majority of people think it's a good idea.

[Mondkalb]

This is sort of like an idea that I talked about with Takkaria on IRC: have scrolls lying around the dungeon which give lore on a particular unique (or a small group of monsters) when read. It should probably be (mostly) depth-appropriate... scrolls detailing Huan or Glaurung would probably not be found on dungeon level 1.

Veterans could squelch or ignore these scrolls but newbies would (potentially) benefit.

I'd be willing to code this feature up if a majority of people think it's a good idea.

Wonderful.
That would add useful information and flavour at the same time. Lots of other CRPGs have used ancient books and scrolls to tell the player various things about the history of the game world and such. (Baldur's Gate or The Elder Scrolls for example.)

[Eagle]

Scrolls could be cool too! (and probably easier to introduce).
However finding scrolls (and therefor it's lore) is based on chance. One could miss a particular one, and die because of it.

The nice thing about Scroll Lore is off course that it's easy to introduce all kind of Lore and flavor with them into the game. Making the whole ambiance more enjoyable. Especially for new players.

[Mondkalb]

The scrolls or knowledge books could be available in the shops, for a price.

[fizzix]

This is sort of like an idea that I talked about with Takkaria on IRC: have scrolls lying around the dungeon which give lore on a particular unique (or a small group of monsters) when read. It should probably be (mostly) depth-appropriate... scrolls detailing Huan or Glaurung would probably not be found on dungeon level 1.

Veterans could squelch or ignore these scrolls but newbies would (potentially) benefit.

I'd be willing to code this feature up if a majority of people think it's a good idea.

ooh, i like this idea. It'd be pretty easy to make them common enough, or in large enough stacks that you can at least get the pertinent information on all the monsters that might kill you in the first 20 dungeon levels.

I guess, the easiest way to implement this is to read a scroll and it says, "you've learned about the Umber Hulk" and then you have full knowledge of that monster. It could always be a monster that you don't know fully. And the monster can be chosen from a specified list, or just random. The monster knowledge pops up on the screen and is added to your lore.

A slightly harder way would be to have a completely random or specified list of traits that you learn. In which case it would be "You learn that the Umber Hulk can gaze to confuse" If you have a specified list, you could even put in fake information. I think it's fair play to trump up some less dangerous monsters. "You've learned that Orfax, son of Boldor can breathe fire." Information learned from these scrolls can show up in a different color on monster lore, as being unsure if true. And can change to normal if they are confirmed. Again after reading the scroll the monster lore pops up with the new bits in purple.

The hardest but perhaps coolest way to do something like this is to have a new edit file of monster lore, with specifically tailored messages, and extra descriptions. Some info gets added to the lore knowledge after each read.

[miyazaki]

Couldn't this all be done by strengthening the rods of probing? If they are tweaked so that they reveal monster attacks including damage estimates, they would become much more useful and fill this gap. Toss in some scrolls of probing for the shallow levels of the dungeon and they could become an essential item.

[Hariolor]

The scrolls or knowledge books could be available in the shops, for a price.

Seconded on both counts.

I must with some shame admit that I used save-scumming extensively for the first several months of play. I just didn't have fun watching "Frito XXXII the High-Elf Ranger" die YASD to a drolem, or druj, or ether hound, or ungoliant (spiders with breath attacks, wtf?) etc etc

Once I learned enough about game mechanics and most of the nasty enemies, I stopped save scumming. I definitely think having scrolls of lore for purchase/discovery that fill in info on classes of creatures and uniques would be tremendously helpful.

Love it.

[Rizwan]

Couldn't this all be done by strengthening the rods of probing? If they are tweaked so that they reveal monster attacks including damage estimates, they would become much more useful and fill this gap. Toss in some scrolls of probing for the shallow levels of the dungeon and they could become an essential item.

Yes, that was what I was thinking too, along with staves and wands of probing. They could give monster information instead of just hit points. Maybe use them to probe the monster a few times until all is known about the monster.

[PowerDiver]

Couldn't this all be done by strengthening the rods of probing? If they are tweaked so that they reveal monster attacks including damage estimates, they would become much more useful and fill this gap. Toss in some scrolls of probing for the shallow levels of the dungeon and they could become an essential item.

The upshot being that newbies will devote a slot to probing that veterans do not need to.