Idea: Buy monsterknowledge / get rumors

[takkaria]

After the initial stage the player is basically a millionaire. (waiting for acquirement scrolls) Spending a few coins on knowledge of what evil lurks a few staircases down, seems a good investment too me. Even if it's just too know the 'look' of the bad guy on screen is valuable in itself.
The buy-monster-info-mechanism gives the inexperienced/unknowing player a change to know what he/she is up against. If he doesn't use it, he'll probably buy some info the next time.

OK, I'm looking at this thread by trying to identify the problems people have given and look at the solutions given, and see how well they match up.

The main problem given appears to be that newbies die from monsters they don't know to fear, and some of them will be put off the game as a result. (I don't really see this as a problem; it's a fairly vital and I think unavoidable part of the game. If someone don't like permadeath, there's not much we can do for them.)

There a bunch of possible solutions. I don't think selling monster info in the stores is one of them, though. There are a *lot* of monsters in Angband, and buying info on any one of them is not very helpful to you unless you already know what the dangerous ones are (the kind of knowledge you gain through experience). Additionally, buying information and reading it has nowhere near the same psychological impact as actually getting in a fight with a monster (and maybe dying). In order to get good with the game, you have to practice. That involves death. Every death teaches you an important lesson. Maybe I'm attacking a strawman here, but I don't think you can reproduce the kind of practical knowledge of what to avoid and what try and kill by allowing the player to do more reading.

Which isn't to say that it may not sometimes be useful to gain information about a monster, and that sometimes it will make an impact. But deaths are an important part of learning, and they always have been. If you don't like that, you shouldn't be playing.

Another part- solution would be to make it obvious when a monster is out-of-depth. 3.1.1 does this (you know more info about a monster before you first fight or kill it). This requires newbies to be careful and look at monsters, and if it says "usually seen at 800'" on dl4, they should run away. If they're not doing that, then frankly they should learn to do it.

There seems to be another thing implicit here which is that "if the player does nothing wrong, they should not die". I broadly agree with that. I'd argue that attacking an unknown monster without checking whether it's out of depth is doing something wrong, though. People who do that I imagine are also unlikely to be the ones buying monster info.

A third problem is that the game is perceived to lack some flavour. I have sympathy for this view; but it is a different problem to stopping newbies dying. Scrolls to teach about monsters are possible, as are carvings on walls or floors you can look at to gain information about monsters (possibly nearby those monsters). However, this is distinct from the first problem given above and the solutions to either will be different.

[Hariolor]

Yes, that was what I was thinking too, along with staves and wands of probing. They could give monster information instead of just hit points. Maybe use them to probe the monster a few times until all is known about the monster.

Not a bad thought, but as pointed out previously, this requires LOS to the monster. For a less-than-stealthy character this may often be no better than marching up and shooting the thing with an arrow or smacking it with a sword.

I like the idea that some amount of preparation could be allowed on the part of the player prior to getting your @ all 'sploded to bits.

Maybe if R/S/W of probing allowed the character to target a nearby enemy not necessarily in LOS. Like a combo detect spell + examine one enemy in detail per use?

[Hariolor]

I'm just a noob here, but I wanted to throw a few things out there:

The main problem given appears to be that newbies die from monsters they don't know to fear, and some of them will be put off the game as a result. (I don't really see this as a problem; it's a fairly vital and I think unavoidable part of the game. If someone don't like permadeath, there's not much we can do for them.)

I can only speak for myself, but the permadeath isn't what turned me off initially. It was the 'gotcha' feeling of having *no* way to know what powers a monster had prior to attacking it, and then getting killed in the first round of combat. (I acknowledge the OOD flag helps with this).

There a bunch of possible solutions. I don't think selling monster info in the stores is one of them, though. There are a *lot* of monsters in Angband, and buying info on any one of them is not very helpful to you unless you already know what the dangerous ones are (the kind of knowledge you gain through experience).

could you buy info on a class of monsters instead? ie: J/s/c/o/T/P/p, etc?

Additionally, buying information and reading it has nowhere near the same psychological impact as actually getting in a fight with a monster (and maybe dying). In order to get good with the game, you have to practice. That involves death. Every death teaches you an important lesson. Maybe I'm attacking a strawman here, but I don't think you can reproduce the kind of practical knowledge of what to avoid and what try and kill by allowing the player to do more reading.

Which isn't to say that it may not sometimes be useful to gain information about a monster, and that sometimes it will make an impact. But deaths are an important part of learning, and they always have been. If you don't like that, you shouldn't be playing.

Another part- solution would be to make it obvious when a monster is out-of-depth. 3.1.1 does this (you know more info about a monster before you first fight or kill it). This requires newbies to be careful and look at monsters, and if it says "usually seen at 800'" on dl4, they should run away. If they're not doing that, then frankly they should learn to do it.

Totally agreed here - but the option of having a more complete monster info the first time you encounter something might nudge some new players into the more cautious approach that V requires. For those that see a monster that can "hit to attack hit to attack, hit to paralyze, and hit to paralyze" and STILL don't run away, then tough noogies.

There seems to be another thing implicit here which is that "if the player does nothing wrong, they should not die". I broadly agree with that. I'd argue that attacking an unknown monster without checking whether it's out of depth is doing something wrong, though. People who do that I imagine are also unlikely to be the ones buying monster info.

This holds pretty true at the shallower depths, but by 2500' and below, there's plenty of 'in-depth' monsters that can totally blindside you. Below that where the game really gets rolling, fuggedaboudit.

A third problem is that the game is perceived to lack some flavour. I have sympathy for this view; but it is a different problem to stopping newbies dying. Scrolls to teach about monsters are possible, as are carvings on walls or floors you can look at to gain information about monsters (possibly nearby those monsters). However, this is distinct from the first problem given above and the solutions to either will be different.

I think the solutions proposed thus far are looking to inject flavor while simultaneously making the game a bit more survivable for total newbies. Let's be realistic, new players will still die like crazy. Veteran players still die like crazy - the RNG alone makes sure of that. I guess buying/discovering monster info might be more of a placebo in that it doesn't prevent the deaths, but it at least makes it easier to acknowledge that your @ had it coming when you pick a battle you can't win.

Just my $0.02 - tear me down now

[takkaria]

I can only speak for myself, but the permadeath isn't what turned me off initially. It was the 'gotcha' feeling of having *no* way to know what powers a monster had prior to attacking it, and then getting killed in the first round of combat. (I acknowledge the OOD flag helps with this).

Aye, that is a turn-off. On the other hand, I think the OOD flag combined with detect monster gives you warning enough. The game is still here and with a vibrant community after a number of years, so I don't think we need to do anything more to get newbies into the game.

could you buy info on a class of monsters instead? ie: J/s/c/o/T/P/p, etc?

How much money are we talking of spending here? Also, I get the feeling if you learn about a set of monsters at once, you're far less likely to actually read the descriptions of them individually, which kinda removes the point...

Totally agreed here - but the option of having a more complete monster info the first time you encounter something might nudge some new players into the more cautious approach that V requires. For those that see a monster that can "hit to attack hit to attack, hit to paralyze, and hit to paralyze" and STILL don't run away, then tough noogies.

The question is, though, will the option of knowing actually be taken up by anyone? I mean, it's the kind of thing people are likely to try out once or twice, find that it doesn't really significantly help them, and leave alone, and that the money is better spent on !Teleportation.

This holds pretty true at the shallower depths, but by 2500' and below, there's plenty of 'in-depth' monsters that can totally blindside you. Below that where the game really gets rolling, fuggedaboudit.

Indeed, that's true. But the same thing happens here-- you don't know what monsters you need to know about until you know about them, at which point you're either dead or you've learnt anyway.

I think the solutions proposed thus far are looking to inject flavor while simultaneously making the game a bit more survivable for total newbies. Let's be realistic, new players will still die like crazy. Veteran players still die like crazy - the RNG alone makes sure of that. I guess buying/discovering monster info might be more of a placebo in that it doesn't prevent the deaths, but it at least makes it easier to acknowledge that your @ had it coming when you pick a battle you can't win.

I think it would be a placebo, yeah. OTOH, I don't think it's a necessary or useful one for the game.

[RogerN]

There's already a mechanism in the game for finding out about monsters: probing. I can't remember if Vanilla works this way, but in some variants you can use a Staff of Probing (or rod) in order to learn about a monster, including its resistances and attacks. I don't normally carry _Probing, but it's come in handy a few times. The only drawback is that you must have LOS, which opens you up to unknown (and potentially deadly) attacks.

Perhaps probing should be possible without LOS? It could be turned into a large-radius ball spell, so as to peek around corners.

[Magnate]

There's already a mechanism in the game for finding out about monsters: probing. I can't remember if Vanilla works this way, but in some variants you can use a Staff of Probing (or rod) in order to learn about a monster, including its resistances and attacks. I don't normally carry _Probing, but it's come in handy a few times. The only drawback is that you must have LOS, which opens you up to unknown (and potentially deadly) attacks.

Perhaps probing should be possible without LOS? It could be turned into a large-radius ball spell, so as to peek around corners.

Probing is utterly, unbelievably useless at the moment - and has been ever since I started playing around 2.9.0. IMO it should either be beefed up along the lines of this thread, or just removed. But if we're talking about introducing new mechanics, it should be beefed up, not removed.

I am against any mechanic which involves paying gold for info (game of shopping). I like d_m's scroll idea though.

[Colbey]

I am against any mechanic which involves paying gold for info (game of shopping).

Agreed...but not just for the game-of-shopping reason. Why penalize newbies, the people who are most likely to actually spend lots of gold in the midgame, by taking some of the gold supply away? Let them figure out on their own that surfacing constantly to see if the weapon shop has a slightly better Weapon of Slay Orc is not the best way to go, rather than have it be forced upon them by the fact that they'll be broke after buying all the knowledge scrolls/books.

[Atarlost]

ToME has scrolls like that. They are pure TMJ.

A rumour system might be better.
As an example:
Every time you enter a shop with a situational item the shopkeeper will select a random applicable item and give you monster info as part of a sales pitch. The alchemist might run through the monster list and warn you about the first monster you haven't met that drains strength or has a time attack to try to get you to buy restore strength potions. The Black Market might warn you about a random dragon to get you to buy a halberd of slay dragon (+2, +3). A fixed list of nasties might be used as justifications for buying nonspecific but important stuff like ?tlevel or -tother.

This would give the new player the idea that precautions exist that will help with certain enemies, and that the dungeon is dangerous, and give the shopkeepers something that passes for personality. The fact that the information is coming from people who bring to mind used car salesmen would hopefully prevent the new player from believing it to be complete.

[bio_hazard]

A few thoughts on this- i briefly scanned the comments so apologies if this duplicates what someone else said. I'm all for the players knowing as much as possible. From my perspective, the fun is in seeing what monsters and items are on a level, not in having to figure out how a monster is going to kill me.

1) as a way to combine squelchable flavor with monster knowledge- put inert skeletons/bones/rubble back in the game, and have associated with each piece of junk an old adventurer's journal with one or more monsters that the previous adventurer fought (with the last, most dangerous one having dealt the mortal wound).

"The skeleton is clutching a journal!"

2) IMHO uniques could/should be known at the start of the game. These are the legends that the townsfolk would be telling each other, and you, on your quest, might have already heard. Otherwise, how would you know Lagduf the Snaga is a unique but Joe the Snaga isn't.

3) it seems entirely reasonable for telepathy to give full monster information.

4) I could imagine a 'learn-by-use' type of knowledge acquisition for monsters, where if you've encountered a monster with a similar attack once you'll know about that attack. For example, you've seen a baby red dragon breathes fire, so it's not too hard to extrapolate up to an ancient red dragon breathing fire, and other dragons breathing something. If you've seen a gnome mage summon a monster, you'll recognize this ability in any other monster you see.

5) Paying for knowledge of individual monsters seems like a hassle (plus what would that menu look like?!). If we are going to pay for it, make it easy. Monsters native to DL 1-20, 21-40, etc. Either make it a store service, or something that shows up in the BM fairly frequently... If this is for beginning players, try to make it so it isn't cheap but isn't onerously expensive either. for example, if the first book was in the 1000g range, this would mean maybe one trip where you didn't upgrade equipment. Prices could definitely go up for the next ones- by the time you are worried about dl50 monsters you should have plenty of money...

[Sirridan]

Otherwise, how would you know Lagduf the Snaga is a unique but Joe the Snaga isn't.

But by naming him, you have given Joe a unique identity!

In all seriousness, I like the rumor / journal ideas. Although at times I feel like we should know all monster memory at the start, but then again I like to have unknown monsters. It keeps me afraid and humble, heh.

Although at least I would like a warning if the monster could instakill you. The first time I saw a basilisk, I thought it would be a pretty easy fight until it breathed, I had no idea poison did that much damage at the time.

[pampl]

In all seriousness, I like the rumor / journal ideas. Although at times I feel like we should know all monster memory at the start, but then again I like to have unknown monsters. It keeps me afraid and humble, heh.

Although at least I would like a warning if the monster could instakill you. The first time I saw a basilisk, I thought it would be a pretty easy fight until it breathed, I had no idea poison did that much damage at the time.

Yeah, that exact situation is why I like rumors more than monster memory. Monster memory doesn't really help new players much because they don't know that breath weapons are based on hit points, for example, so telling them AMHD has 3x the HP of an ancient green dragon doesn't warn them that their poison breath is 3x as strong too. Warning them about the most threatening monsters (homunculi, umber hulks, dreads, ..) won't deluge them with information they can't make use of, and could be less spoily.

The random nature of a rumor system is a mixed blessing - it means there'd still be surprise insta-deaths for players who hadn't heard the right rumor, but that also means that players can't be completely confident that a new monster isn't threatening just because they haven't heard of it.

[buzzkill]

Probing is utterly, unbelievably useless at the moment ... it should be beefed up, not removed.

Agreed. I'd add a Staff of Probing to my already crowded pack when venturing into unexplored territory. That is, if it actually gave some useful information, like number and type of attacks, spell like abilities, and so on (even if it took multiple probes or could be % chance resisted). The number of hit points is the last thing I'm worried about.

[Pete Mack]

The only suggestion on this thread that makes sense is improving "probing." If you really are interested in rumors, start here.

You can also turn on full monster knowledge in your save file, at the cost of permanent noscore mode. IMO, "spoiling" a save file should be something you can do in the birth menu, without affecting further scores. As it stands, monster knowledge is an utterly arbitrary feature. If you think spoiling makes the game worse, don't do it. (The same holds for town-scumming, level-scumming, save-file scumming (aka cheating), and any number of other arguably bad habits.)

[Mondkalb]

Why has Angband gold and shops in the first place?
If it isn't a game of buying, why can you buy things at all? And why is there so much gold, that every late hero is a billionaire?

Some things are vital like basic spell books for casters, so they can be bought.
But potions of healing and *healing* are also vital for winning the game, but they can't be bought (at least not in required amounts).
I'm a bit embarrassed about the latter because I have a character with winning gear and I am searching the dungeon for ages without finding enough meanings of healing to go for Morgoth.

[Eagle]

Thanks for all the replies and thoughts!

Upping the Rod of Probing seems another good way to give the unknowing players a chance. Why not make it a common item, which a player can find at dLevel5?
Perhaps we can tie the result of use to cLvl?
A cLvl 1-10 player gets only the most basic attack info on a monster. "It can hit to confuse" or "it can summon demons".
A cLvl11-30 player gets more info.
A cLvl31+ player gets full monster memory.

On another point, the monster memory doesn't show the player the deadlyness of an possible attack. It states the Tarrasque can breath fire, but not for how much! One way to solve this is to add the mathmatics (It can breath for 600+ damage). But the more subtle way could be to add some flavor to the monster memory: It can breath *deadly* fire.

My biggest turn-off atm is dying from an unkwown attack after maximizing all my stats in the previous days (weeks?). I've lost a lot of cLvl50 characters allready. (I personally do not mind dying before clvl25, because not much playing time was spend). How many times does one have to die before you have enough information to win? I would say theoratically 0 times. The game should provide the smart/carefull/lucky player enough information to make good decisions. The fights are tough enough even with knowledge of your enemy. Death will occur, and the player should blame himself instead of the game.

PS. I think the game does need new players. Or at least welcome them into the pits of Angband, and helping them to master the game while playing. And give enough information to the player so he does not have to read a spoiler to play well! The learning slope it steep atm. It would be a cool experiment to get 20 newbies to play for a month and they put their question/experience to paper. I'll bet 19 of them will quit playing after a few days because they do not 'understand' the game. And that's a shame, because it's (almost?) the greatest game ever made! Their loss is our loss.

PS.PS. Creating another money sink seems a good thing to me. The shops are allmost useless for clvl30+ players. I'm a fighter, not a banker!