Don't Like Yet

[Arphod]

Let me start by saying I seriously respect the work that people are doing on V, and kudos to those that are helping with feedback for development.

That said:

I've been playing Angband for about a long damn time. I've won twice. I love this game. My girlfriend is a diehard gamer, and still she calls me 'nerd' when she walks by when I'm playing. I love this game. But I must throw pennies. I say that this latest beta, 3.1.1.1.1.9, or whatever it's called, is so drastic of a change from 3.0.9b, which is my love, that I'm not sure how to deal.

The changes in prices, rarities, pacing, et al., make it a completely different experience. While I know that these changes were intentional, they really are *very* abrupt changes. It feels like a new game entirely, not merely a new version. I'm not a player who loves the divedivedivedivedive mentality that seems to be prevalent here; the kind of play that only lauds the smallest turncount possible. We don't all play that way. My first win was 25 million turns. It was still a win, and I still danced around the room, knocking over various lamps and brac-a-brac.

My point is that V seems to have become a player's game, instead of a game. It feels elitist.

That's all. Don't kill me.

[Nick]

Good work - multiple viewpoints are a Good Thing. The game becoming too narrow would be a Bad Thing. And the more detail you can give about which changes you like and which you don't, the better.

[Mondkalb]

Let me start by saying I seriously respect the work that people are doing on V, and kudos to those that are helping with feedback for development.

That said:

I've been playing Angband for about a long damn time. I've won twice. I love this game. My girlfriend is a diehard gamer, and still she calls me 'nerd' when she walks by when I'm playing. I love this game. But I must throw pennies. I say that this latest beta, 3.1.1.1.1.9, or whatever it's called, is so drastic of a change from 3.0.9b, which is my love, that I'm not sure how to deal.

The changes in prices, rarities, pacing, et al., make it a completely different experience. While I know that these changes were intentional, they really are *very* abrupt changes. It feels like a new game entirely, not merely a new version. I'm not a player who loves the divedivedivedivedive mentality that seems to be prevalent here; the kind of play that only lauds the smallest turncount possible. We don't all play that way. My first win was 25 million turns. It was still a win, and I still danced around the room, knocking over various lamps and brac-a-brac.

My point is that V seems to have become a player's game, instead of a game. It feels elitist.

That's all. Don't kill me.

I have similiar feelings.
I like the changes with game handling and overall improvement of UI.
I am missing more and more flavour, like others have mentioned, the disappearence of various useless items such as skeletons, broken items,filthy rags and whatnot.
The changes regarding the shop supplies are also not my cup of tea (same for the changes to monster drops).

I don't bother how many turns it will last to win. I want to play, have fun and maybe win every now and then.

[fizzix]

I have similiar feelings.
I like the changes with game handling and overall improvement of UI.
I am missing more and more flavour, like others have mentioned, the disappearence of various useless items such as skeletons, broken items,filthy rags and whatnot.
The changes regarding the shop supplies are also not my cup of tea (same for the changes to monster drops).

I don't bother how many turns it will last to win. I want to play, have fun and maybe win every now and then.

I think a lot of the streamlining of objects to get rid of too much junk resulted in a much smoother playing of the game for a skilled player but a weaker experience for a newer player. The expert players are going to zip down to dlevel 20 right away anyways, so having junk appear on levels 1-20 shouldn't really affect them.

When I first played Angband, I went to the general store and bought some wine assuming that it would have a different useful effect from the food. I figured out it was worthless soon after. I also wound up carrying around something like a skull or a broken sword because it was the first one I'd ever seen, and figured it would have a use. It didn't. Instead of saying, 'these objects are useless and I should erase them from the game' I instead assumed that they must have previously had a use and spent a deal of time wondering what the uses could've been. Kind of like the human appendix.

So...isntead of TMJ, maybe we should try to find a use for some of the junk. Even if it's a very minor use. Kind of like the way torches are now useful because you can't buy a lantern right away.

Since I'm always one to spout out crazy ideas, here are some that I've come up with.

Skeletons, skulls, broken swords ~ could indicate that there is a dangerous monster or less dangerous unique nearby/on the level.
Pottery shards ~ could indicate that there is a useful scroll/potion/wand/book nearby. Assuming that you would protect these, maybe. A stretch. Alternatively, shards could be very useful projectiles for slings, maybe doing damage similar to oil but breaking immediately.
Bottles of wine, crusts of bread ~ If dropped in town, all aware monsters will head towards it and whoever picks it up will fall back asleep there or something. Maybe urchins like bread and veterans like wine. This way, you have a way of heading off the mean spirited mercenary before he kills you when you have yet to enter the dungeon. Or maybe filthy rags (or anything else) can be thrown into a group of urchins and they fight over it (confused for n turns)

These things will obviously only be useful for a small portion of the game, but that's ok. Many of the things in shops and in the dungeon are only useful for a small portion of the game. However, they do add the flavor back in, and they bring an idea of 'what can i use this for?' back in for a wider range of objects.

[Magnate]

The changes in prices, rarities, pacing, et al., make it a completely different experience. While I know that these changes were intentional, they really are *very* abrupt changes. It feels like a new game entirely, not merely a new version. I'm not a player who loves the divedivedivedivedive mentality that seems to be prevalent here; the kind of play that only lauds the smallest turncount possible. We don't all play that way. My first win was 25 million turns. It was still a win, and I still danced around the room, knocking over various lamps and brac-a-brac.

My point is that V seems to have become a player's game, instead of a game. It feels elitist.

Well, this is partly why we have both a "stable" and a "beta" version out there (if we ignore 3.1.0 for the moment, 3.0.9b is stable and 3.1.1 is beta). The beta version is where people get to test these changes in a fairly bug-free game and give their feedback. So it's perfectly fine to say that there are things you don't like about it - but please get specific about what they are. Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with it feeling like a different game, but there are clearly some aspects of that feeling that you don't like - why does it feel elitist? Most people are saying that it's got quite a lot easier (with the larger number of good/great drops) rather than harder - so you presumably don't mean elitist as in more difficult. In what way does it seem geared to people playing to minimise turncount? I guess there's the introduction of scrolls of Deep Descent, but I can't think of anything else which directly impacts this. The attempt to eliminate "stat gain" has if anything had the opposite effect: it actually penalises divers, who now often finish the game without maxed stats.

To declare my interest, I did the pricing stuff, which I know a few people don't really like, but most don't seem to mind and many appreciate the added consistency. I can honestly say that it wasn't done to drive the game in any particular direction in terms of speed or difficulty or anything else. It was purely to try and make it more internally consistent. I think the whole issue of pricing is dwarfed by the larger issue of what is the town for (what's guaranteed to be in which shop, what you can and can't buy or sell etc. etc.).

I also did the new randarts - again, just because I wanted to improve on the old ones, not because I had any particular agenda - and a few other bits and pieces (the monster list window, the dynastic character numbering and so on). I do now play as a "diver", trying to minimise turncount - but I played for a good seven years or so as a completer-finisher, clearing every level at least once, often two or three times. So I hope I have an understanding of the different styles of play.

Thanks for starting the discussion.

[d_m]

Skeletons, skulls, broken swords ~ could indicate that there is a dangerous monster or less dangerous unique nearby/on the level.

I find this suggestion appealing.

EDIT: I also miss Narsil.

[Mondkalb]

*sigh*
I remember wandering the dungeon wearing a broken dagger of westernesse (for fa or si) and a filthy rag of elvenkind ...

[Marble Dice]

*sigh*
I remember wandering the dungeon wearing a broken dagger of westernesse (for fa or si) and a filthy rag of elvenkind ...

Level 6 Half-Elf Hobo

[Mondkalb]

The filthy rag outlived the hobo phase because it was some very useful high resistance (can't remember).

[PowerDiver]

*sigh*
I remember wandering the dungeon wearing a broken dagger of westernesse (for fa or si) and a filthy rag of elvenkind ...

A broken dagger of westernesse is probably what got me started diving.

I'd also trade ego plate mail for ego filthy rag every time.

[jv123]

Skeletons, skulls, broken swords ~ could indicate that there is a dangerous monster or less dangerous unique nearby/on the level.
Pottery shards ~ could indicate that there is a useful scroll/potion/wand/book nearby. Assuming that you would protect these, maybe. A stretch. Alternatively, shards could be very useful projectiles for slings, maybe doing damage similar to oil but breaking immediately.
Bottles of wine, crusts of bread ~ If dropped in town, all aware monsters will head towards it and whoever picks it up will fall back asleep there or something. Maybe urchins like bread and veterans like wine. This way, you have a way of heading off the mean spirited mercenary before he kills you when you have yet to enter the dungeon. Or maybe filthy rags (or anything else) can be thrown into a group of urchins and they fight over it (confused for n turns)

These are EXCELLENT suggestions. This sort of thing should be taken much, much more seriously by the devs, in my opinion --- for new players, this sort of stuff is incredibly, incredibly important.

Here's what I can remember from when I first started to play the game, about 15 years ago (it was probably Moria then): I loved haggling, and I loved seeing bits of broken pottery and things lying around. These were fun! Of course I don't love these things now --- as an experienced player, I really enjoy playing the game in its current form. But I honestly think that if it had been the modern game that I'd first played all those years ago, I wouldn't have enjoyed it as much.

[Bill Peterson]

I looked at an older version (2.9.3) and all those junk items do cause damage, usually just 1d1. At lower levels they can be useful to throw, particularly if you don't have a ranged weapon.

[PowerDiver]

I am missing more and more flavour, like others have mentioned, the disappearence of various useless items such as skeletons, broken items,filthy rags and whatnot.
The changes regarding the shop supplies are also not my cup of tea (same for the changes to monster drops).

First off, IMO there should not be egos for sale in town. Or if there are, available gold needs to be reduced so that they are really hard to buy. But on to the main point.


One person's dross is another person's gloss.

We could all have been happy with respect to sticks and pottery if the oldtimers would have embraceed squelch. Let each player specify what he wants to see and what he wants to ignore.


The underlying problem that caused this massive attack on item distribution is the need to use the identify spell in order to know whether each weapon or armor is junk. Fix that, and embrace squelch, and then junk for flavor is a good thing.

[fizzix]

To declare my interest, I did the pricing stuff, which I know a few people don't really like, but most don't seem to mind and many appreciate the added consistency. I can honestly say that it wasn't done to drive the game in any particular direction in terms of speed or difficulty or anything else. It was purely to try and make it more internally consistent. I think the whole issue of pricing is dwarfed by the larger issue of what is the town for (what's guaranteed to be in which shop, what you can and can't buy or sell etc. etc.).

I also did the new randarts - again, just because I wanted to improve on the old ones, not because I had any particular agenda - and a few other bits and pieces (the monster list window, the dynastic character numbering and so on). I do now play as a "diver", trying to minimise turncount - but I played for a good seven years or so as a completer-finisher, clearing every level at least once, often two or three times. So I hope I have an understanding of the different styles of play.

I think that the pricing scheme has been *vastly* improved. So good work there. You're also right on with the current issue of item availability. The pricing scheme does affect beginning play significantly, but I don't think it's any worse for a novice. The best thing I think now could be a revised beginner's guide, since the current available ones online are woefully out of date. (i.e. first, buy a lantern)

I never played much with the randarts before, mostly because with needing *id* it was way too cumbersome. With the modified id scheme, randarts are very feasible and loads of fun. I don't think I'll play with standarts again unless I decide to play a competition (and suck badly at it). So thanks for the randarts code improvements also.

[Magnate]

I think that the pricing scheme has been *vastly* improved. So good work there. You're also right on with the current issue of item availability. The pricing scheme does affect beginning play significantly, but I don't think it's any worse for a novice. The best thing I think now could be a revised beginner's guide, since the current available ones online are woefully out of date. (i.e. first, buy a lantern)

Thanks for the feedback. I think the biggest effect of the new pricing is that non-rangers can no longer afford to start with a x3 launcher (at least, not without severely skimping on other gear). IMO this is no bad thing, since it makes x2 launchers more useful for longer. But it is a significant change, so some people won't like it.

(I meant biggest effect at the start of the game - the biggest effect overall is the pricing of speed items of course - but I share Eddie's view that ego items shouldn't be for sale in the town, so I don't see the reduction in the cost of speed items as the tragedy that some do.)