What do you want from the list of visible monsters?

[Nick]

The code is incredibly ugly and could do with massive efficiency improvements, but I'm happy with the results.

I'm tempted to use that as my sig.

[Magnate]

Be very careful with colouring by speed—you may turn what was an easy-to-read list into a neon cacophony. Also, note that all monsters of the same race do not have the same speed: there is a small variation for each monster (see monster/monster2.c:1666). Might it be better to simply colour monsters faster than you?

(FWIW, I think out-of-depth and unique are more useful than speed when it comes to colouring.)

Hmmm. I tend to side with Marble Dice - there are usually so many monsters I cannot handle that whether they happen to be OoD for the current level is largely irrelevant. Uniques tend to be easily distinguished by name. I take your point about visual cacophonics though, so yes, a single colour for "faster" is probably best. But maybe buzzkill's idea of using plings would work. ! for faster than you, !! for much faster (+20 or more). Hmmm.

I guess it's time to take a look at the Un code and see what the list looks like.

[d_m]

I know adding options is unpopular--is this command a possible exception to this?

If not, would it be possible to have multiple commands? I can imagine the LOS ordering being useful in some situations, but often I'm much more worried about the monsters that don't have LOS but I assume will be on the way (diggers, incorporeal, hounds, etc). If I had to choose only one, I'd rather not have it. Obviously I could choose to have both.

For that matter, I could imagine subwindows for LOS-monsters, non-LOS monsters, and all monsters.

Also, I agree that in many cases the OOD-depth red coloring isn't that useful although I think the unique coloring is almost always useful. I'd rather red signify "dangerous based on dmg output, character lvl, elemental attacks, etc" in some way. Awhile ago I mentioned trying to implement this, but so far I haven't done so.

[Magnate]

I'd rather red signify "dangerous based on dmg output, character lvl, elemental attacks, etc" in some way. Awhile ago I mentioned trying to implement this, but so far I haven't done so.

I plan to do that as soon as I've overhauled the monster power algorithm. At the moment it rates snagas as tougher than uruks so something is amiss, but yes, red should eventually mean "significantly more powerful than average for this depth".

[bio_hazard]

In terms of detection- is there an in-game difference between 1) maximum range at which a monster COULD detect the player, and 2) whether the monster HAS detected the player and is either moving towards the player or (for molds and such) is waiting for the player.

The later seems more important, and presumably would be something that a player could determine either visually for LOS monsters or with telepathy, and would not require monster memory.

[Magnate]

Just FYI, this has now been implemented in r1418. I went for "You can see" monsters in LOS, and "You are aware of" others, noting how many of each group are awake.

After discussion with Takkaria and others, it was agreed that incorporating info on speed or detection range was a little too much info at the moment. The info on LOS and asleep/awake is no more than you can get from the 'l'ook command already.

I decided not to bother noting separate groups of monsters because it's simply too difficult to keep the display manageable. Sorry.

[Zikke]

Where can I download this nightly build?

[Magnate]

Where can I download this nightly build?

I don't know if it's been built yet, but you can compile it yourself if you check out the subversion trunk. If you don't use subversion, the nightly build will be in the usual place whenever it gets built (middle of the night, I guess).

[takkaria]

I don't know if it's been built yet, but you can compile it yourself if you check out the subversion trunk. If you don't use subversion, the nightly build will be in the usual place whenever it gets built (middle of the night, I guess).

It gets built every four hours, and r1418 is available now (at http://rephial.org/nightlies).

[Magnate]

It gets built every four hours, and r1418 is available now (at http://rephial.org/nightlies).

Wow. "Nightly" is too modest then! Kudos.

[jv123]

Magnate --- what can I say --- excellent work! It was me who posted the request for this feature a few weeks ago, and I didn't for a moment hope that I'd see it implemented in under six months. I guess I'm still not used to the dramatic rate of development that Angband is receiving at the moment!

The feature works exactly like I hoped it would. After using it for a while, I have a few suggestions:

* If there are monsters in your line of sight, but no others that you're aware of, I think it would be better to get rid of the line "You are aware of 0 other monsters". It's extra clutter, and I don't think it's needed --- it's supposed to be a list of monsters you know about, not a list of monsters you don't know about! Plus, it gets a bit monotonous in the early game, since without telepathy/ESP there are never any monsters you're aware of but can't see (apart from when you occasionally detect monsters.)

* I think it would look better with a blank line between the monsters you can see, and the monsters you are aware of.

* "You see 0 monsters" has something of stilted feel to me. How about "You can't see any monsters"?

* Do we really need (awake) for monsters that are awake? I think it would be cleaner to only add an (asleep) modifier for sleeping monsters, and have nothing after monsters that are awake. This reduces clutter without reducing information. A few minutes ago, playing this new version, I was engaged in a long fight with a pack of hounds and using the new monster list heavily, and it got pretty annoying to be continually reminded that they were awake!

With regards to extra colors, or other sorts of extra warnings: I'm not sure I want any more coloring than red for especially dangerous monsters. It doesn't make sense to me to try to get too clever --- some people have suggested a different color for monsters which are moving quickly, but if their speed makes them especially dangerous then they'll be colored red anyway, and if they're not dangerous, you don't really care!

Thanks again --- you've done a great job.

JV.

[Magnate]

* If there are monsters in your line of sight, but no others that you're aware of, I think it would be better to get rid of the line "You are aware of 0 other monsters". It's extra clutter, and I don't think it's needed --- it's supposed to be a list of monsters you know about, not a list of monsters you don't know about! Plus, it gets a bit monotonous in the early game, since without telepathy/ESP there are never any monsters you're aware of but can't see (apart from when you occasionally detect monsters.)

* I think it would look better with a blank line between the monsters you can see, and the monsters you are aware of.

* "You see 0 monsters" has something of stilted feel to me. How about "You can't see any monsters"?

These are just coding laziness on my part - I think they should all be achievable. I didn't really want a blank line, but at least two people do so I'll put one in.

* Do we really need (awake) for monsters that are awake? I think it would be cleaner to only add an (asleep) modifier for sleeping monsters, and have nothing after monsters that are awake. This reduces clutter without reducing information. A few minutes ago, playing this new version, I was engaged in a long fight with a pack of hounds and using the new monster list heavily, and it got pretty annoying to be continually reminded that they were awake!

Hmmm. I'll have to test this a bit more. From the short time I tested it last night I really liked the clarity of asleep/awake. I don't think I agree that taking it away doesn't reduce information - the info is there by implication, but that's easy to forget - the whole point of this exercise is to make obvious information which was previously obscure. I will have another look at it though.

Agreed on the colours thing.

Cheers,

CC

[Marble Dice]

The blank line might not be as necessary if you avoid printing the header for an empty list.

Hmmm. I'll have to test this a bit more. From the short time I tested it last night I really liked the clarity of asleep/awake. I don't think I agree that taking it away doesn't reduce information - the info is there by implication, but that's easy to forget - the whole point of this exercise is to make obvious information which was previously obscure. I will have another look at it though.

Looking good, but for what it's worth I agree with jv123 on the asleep/awake labels. If there's a word after every monster name, I can't easily tell at a glance what that implies. If only sleepers are noted, it's easy for me to see who's sleeping - the ones with a word after them, and who's awake - the ones without a word. If you're always going to put something there, at least use awake/sleeping, as awake/asleep look so similar I really have to read the word to tell the difference.

On a related note, "sleep" is definitely one of those words that starts to sound funny if you keep saying or thinking about it.

[Zikke]

Or use awake/zzzzzzzz. Those look completely different.

[Magnate]

Or use awake/zzzzzzzz. Those look completely different.

Well, bowing to popular pressure I took out references to "awake" altogether. It now only notes monsters which are asleep, and if it's not noted as sleep, then it's awake. Let's see how people like this.

I also inserted the asked-for blank line, and I stopped it printing "You are aware of 0 other monsters" in that case. It does still print "You can see no monsters" if there are none in LOS but some detected outside. I think this is worth leaving in, as it reinforces the fact that none are in LOS.

Committed as r1425.