feature request: merge !restoreStat

[PowerDiver]

Eddie's buyout button is a necessary for oh-so-many other reasons as well,

This has been mentioned in multiple threads recently. It's a trivial bit of coding. I understand why Takkaria is opposed, but IMO this comes under the heading of obvious UI improvements for the game as it is now.

If people really want something, they should try to convince Takkaria it is a good idea. Hint, hint.

[Nolendil]

Now that I think about it, I must have been thinking about a different variant. Steam definitely does not have timed stat-drains, since that would make Cthulhu magic rather silly. What variants *do* have timed stat drains?

I think ToME has both temporary and "permanent" stat drain.


As for the buyout button, it's heading on the opposite direction of what Takkaria wants which is, if I understood correctly: "don't ask for items to be easier to find in shops, suggest how to make items in the dungeon to be more useful".

[Bandobras]

What variants *do* have timed stat drains?

Un. Plus extremely merged restore potions. Plus merged timed boost potions that restore and are very shallow and common (and still not often used). Plus no standard stat potions. Plus player-chosen increase to stats at level-ups. Plus a bit more, yet.

[bio_hazard]

I think ToME has both temporary and "permanent" stat drain.


As for the buyout button, it's heading on the opposite direction of what Takkaria wants which is, if I understood correctly: "don't ask for items to be easier to find in shops, suggest how to make items in the dungeon to be more useful".

ToME definitely has timed drains, although if I recall correctly, they are primarily from traps. They also have store services for restoring (except for in the first town), so you only have to scum for restoring as a beginning character.

[Marble Dice]

As for the buyout button, it's heading on the opposite direction of what Takkaria wants which is, if I understood correctly: "don't ask for items to be easier to find in shops, suggest how to make items in the dungeon to be more useful".

That's a good direction I think, and it's also consistent with not wanting to put item value in the [I]nspect screen so as not to encourage excessive maximization of take-home sell value. However someone else said as long as there's variability in shop inventory and timed restock, there will be store scumming. I don't think either is really ideal, but I don't know what the solution is.

There's many alternatives:

1. Static store inventories with infinite stock, except the Black Market.
2. Static store inventories that start out at a certain stock level, and have no re-stock. Certain items could still be infinite or you could have buy-out or neither.
3. Fixed re-stock intervals that aren't based on turns, such as every time your character gains a level, and every time you increase your max depth by 100'.

But all of these are pretty drastic changes, and none of them without their own problems.

[PowerDiver]

As for the buyout button, it's heading on the opposite direction of what Takkaria wants which is, if I understood correctly: "don't ask for items to be easier to find in shops, suggest how to make items in the dungeon to be more useful".

I said I understood. However, I see that argument being analogous to the arguments that kept squelch out of V for so long. Once you think the game is ready to remove store restocking, then do so. Until then, I want the button.

This even interferes with squelch. I used to set it up so that when you bought a squelched object, the game would automatically unsquelch it assuming you now want the thing. But I've removed that because it is more important to ease the process of buying out a store, where you want bought squelched objects to disappear without any further keypresses.

In fact, I find that I squelch multiple objects I might otherwise use if I bumped into them in the dungeon [e.g. detect invisible] just so that the buyout process is faster. Having no buyout button leads directly to using *fewer* dungeon objects when I play.

[Magnate]

That's a good direction I think, and it's also consistent with not wanting to put item value in the [I]nspect screen so as not to encourage excessive maximization of take-home sell value. However someone else said as long as there's variability in shop inventory and timed restock, there will be store scumming. I don't think either is really ideal, but I don't know what the solution is.

That was me. I quite like your solutions, but I do think that stat restoration should be a store service. Potions are of course useful if you find them in the dungeon when you need them, but waiting to buy them in stores in painful. By all means make the service much more expensive than the potions.

[PowerDiver]

By all means make the service much more expensive than the potions.

Don't you have that backwards? The potions are a superset of the store service, being equally useful in town, and also being capable of being carried into the dungeon. Anyone who believes in pricing according to value should price the potions higher.

If you are pricing higher simply due to convenience, that is the first step down the slippery slope to tedium-based incentives, and you might as well bring haggling back.

[Marble Dice]

I don't know how to justify it from an RP perspective, but if you were opposed to !RestoreBody (STR+DEX+CON) and !RestoreSoul (INT+WIS+CHR) because it was too easy, you could instead merge STR+INT+WIS and CON+DEX+CHR. The way I figure is all classes always need to restore STR (carrying capacity) and CON (hitpoints), so split those two up. Nobody needs both INT and WIS, so put those on the same potion. Finally, put DEX on the potion that doesn't have STR, in case a melee class needs to fix their blows. That way you've only got 2 potions, but you've maximized the likelihood of restoring stats still being a pain in the ass.

To strike a middle ground, you could have !RestoreFortitude (DEX+CON), !RestoreMind (INT+WIS), and !RestoreVigor (STR+CHR).

I'd rather see !rBody and !rSoul, but I understand why some people think that's too easy. Personally, I don't think overly difficult stat restore adds much depth to the game - but I feel the same way about getting my tier 1 through 4 books burned, and there not being any others for sale in the magic store.

[Magnate]

I don't know how to justify it from an RP perspective, but if you were opposed to !RestoreBody (STR+DEX+CON) and !RestoreSoul (INT+WIS+CHR) because it was too easy, you could instead merge STR+INT+WIS and CON+DEX+CHR. The way I figure is all classes always need to restore STR (carrying capacity) and CON (hitpoints), so split those two up. Nobody needs both INT and WIS, so put those on the same potion. Finally, put DEX on the potion that doesn't have STR, in case a melee class needs to fix their blows. That way you've only got 2 potions, but you've maximized the likelihood of restoring stats still being a pain in the ass.

To strike a middle ground, you could have !RestoreFortitude (DEX+CON), !RestoreMind (INT+WIS), and !RestoreVigor (STR+CHR).

I'd rather see !rBody and !rSoul, but I understand why some people think that's too easy. Personally, I don't think overly difficult stat restore adds much depth to the game - but I feel the same way about getting my tier 1 through 4 books burned, and there not being any others for sale in the magic store.

You and I have similar views about this set of issues. I think ?WoR should be fire- and acid-proof ...

[Magnate]

Don't you have that backwards? The potions are a superset of the store service, being equally useful in town, and also being capable of being carried into the dungeon. Anyone who believes in pricing according to value should price the potions higher.

If you are pricing higher simply due to convenience, that is the first step down the slippery slope to tedium-based incentives, and you might as well bring haggling back.

You continue to provoke thought. Yes, I guess the potion is more valuable, so should cost more. But the store service is guaranteed, so it should cost a lot for that reason. That makes the logical cost for the potion even higher. Except that its value as carryable into the dungeon is bogus: how many times have you ever recalled with !resSTAT in your inventory? You stash it at home (while you have space) in case it's not available in the store, but you don't take it with you unless you have tons of spares - and you certainly don't bring it back (unless you're playing Eddieband with no selling). IMO inventory space is too precious for the portability of stat restore potions to add much value (and therefore cost).

I do enjoy debating with you though.

[Donald Jonker]

Not to mention the fact that service restoration typically restores all stats, not just one. I don't think it takes much of a leap of faith to believe that mushrooms of restoration should cost more than the service (with or without the situation that they're only bought from the black market). Those are often worth an inventory slot in the late game - would be more so if they weren't so rare. If !rStat is merged into !rBody and !rSoul, my money says they'd be worth carrying as well, depending on class.

[Marble Dice]

[mushrooms of restoration] are often worth an inventory slot in the late game - would be more so if they weren't so rare. If !rStat is merged into !rBody and !rSoul, my money says they'd be worth carrying as well, depending on class.

That's a good point. For a warrior, !rBody essentially would be !restoration. Combining them into STR+CHR, INT+WIS, and DEX+CON would make all potions important to all classes - except for warriors who'd only care about 2 of them.

Edit: Regarding service restoration, it could always be priced according the the amount of stats you've lost, something like 100 AU for each point. You could even have different per-point prices for the different stats. Then you might run into the problem of only having enough money to restore a portion of your stats and not wanting to have the interface for partial restoration service, but I'd be fine with that.

[Zikke]

Well on my warrior I care about the other stats because it directly affects my device success rate, which warriors use a lot. But I do think combining them will make them usable to everybody.

[PowerDiver]

the store service is guaranteed, so it should cost a lot for that reason

The potions are also guaranteed. They just require dropping to dLevel 1 and resting, going up to check, and repeat until in stock. The only real difference is tedium.

For my first ironman win I found it necessary to scum the town for money until I could buy restore strength to take with me. That was painful, but I found it to be sufficiently important to do it anyway. I think that on multiple occasions I have recalled with restore mana stat potions, particularly restore wisdom for a priest, but I don't remember for sure.