smart hordes

[saarn]

New poster here. . . I've been playing angband on and off since 95, but never won. (best char was level 29 hobbit rogue DL 35).

Anyway, I've gotten back into Angband recently, and have been thinking about fun development projects. I was reading the recent thread on too many monsters, and it struck me that perhaps it would spice things up a bit if hordes of orcs/trolls/ogres actually acted like a military group using formations and group tactics.

My basic idea was that this would kick in for groups tied to an orc captain or unique, and the monsters would revert to current behavior if their leader died. Under the smart mode, archers and shamans would attack from a distance, while monsters without ranged attacks would try to block the player into a room for a pounding. If the player escaped into a corridor, the monsters would split and try to attack from multiple directions. If the leader needed to flee, the other monsters would try to shield him.

I'm curious what other players think about this-- from a programming perspective, I believe it would be fairly challenging, so I'd rather not jump in if I'm the only person who thinks this would be fun :-). I'd also like to hear if people have ideas about particular tactics to help the orc armies defeat @.

[s0be]

I think it would be an 'interesting' addition. I suspect that a decent implementation would make the hordes too strong. It basically makes an orc pit a death trap. Heck, just adding code to make ranged monsters attempt to stay ranged and use ranged attacks would likely make most ranged capable monsters nearly impossible to kill. The 'dumbness' of the AI is practically required for most games as a good AI is rarely beatable by your average player.

[Pete Mack]

the basic strategy is: don't let yourself get next to @ unless:
1. @ attacks first.
2. You can move past @ so at least k > 0 of your friends can also attack
3. One if your friends is already attacking
4. @ is significantly down in hp.

Note that most of this AI is already implemented for either mobs or packs. I suspect it would be a mistake, as the game would be harder for newbies, but would just make running away that much more attractive for positive-filter divers.

[Nick]

My basic idea was that this would kick in for groups tied to an orc captain or unique, and the monsters would revert to current behavior if their leader died. Under the smart mode, archers and shamans would attack from a distance, while monsters without ranged attacks would try to block the player into a room for a pounding. If the player escaped into a corridor, the monsters would split and try to attack from multiple directions. If the leader needed to flee, the other monsters would try to shield him.

4GAI (as seen in O, NPP, FA, etc) already has range preference - so archers will usually not try to get too close. I am currently implementing some very limited group AI for FA. The first step is to have mixed groups of p's which may or may not (as a group) attack the player. I have thought about leaders a little, and like the idea of applying that to orcs etc.

As to balance issues - they can typically be overcome (make monsters less plentiful and/or deeper, for example).

[saarn]

Another possibility to avoid slaughtering low level characters might be to increase the nastiness of the AI with dungeon level (e.g. until DL 20, ranged units don't maintain distance, and at DL 30 they start firing together. . . , or if there's any optimization routines, limit the iterations). This could also help keep hordes "fresh" longer.

I must confess that I haven't played any other *bands than Vanilla-- any suggestions for a relatively close variant that has 4GAI implemented? I'd like to get a feel for how it behaves.

[Nick]

I must confess that I haven't played any other *bands than Vanilla-- any suggestions for a relatively close variant that has 4GAI implemented? I'd like to get a feel for how it behaves.

Oangband is probably best to illustrate the ranged monster behaviour - Novice Archers are a good low level example. It's combat is quite different from Vanilla, but superficially it is similar. NPP is closer to V, but only really considers range for breaths (I think).

[buzzkill]

The 'dumbness' of the AI is practically required for most games as a good AI is rarely beatable by your average player.

The AI in Angband, though gradually improving, is still very poor. Enemies, even intelligent ones, frequently do very stupid things... repetitively. If improving pack AI would render these enemies unbeatable, which it wouldn't (they could always be moved deeper), then the player would just have to 'up' his INT to be equal to the task. We're not talking about giving monsters a separate set of rules to play by (cheat, the current premise), just the ability to make a reasonable combat decision. Angband's game play should not be held back, or thumbed down to appease (perceived) morons who can't cope with, what would still be, a very a basic AI. I'm one of those morons, having never even come close to winning, but would appreciate the additional challenge and flavor that stronger AI would bring to the game.

I'm currently infatuated with Steamband (thanks to the competition, because this is a var that I probably wouldn't have stumbled onto on my own). Though a bit of a departure from V, I was still thoroughly surprised when my first several characters were slain on DL's 1 and 2. It's IMO the hardest variant I've ever played, and quite refreshing (even without graphics, and that's usually a deal breaker for me).

[saarn]

We're not talking about giving monsters a separate set of rules to play by (cheat, the current premise), just the ability to make a reasonable combat decision.

By cheating, do you mean AI hacks (e.g. monsters have full knowledge of dungeon layout, know player location at all times, know player resistances, know player inventory ) or combat abilities (unlimited mana and ammo, heal 50% every third turn, uniques can slow you down, but you can't return the favor, etc)?

Are there specific sorts of information you think would be unfair for an AI to use?

[buzzkill]

By cheating, do you mean AI hacks (e.g. monsters have full knowledge of dungeon layout, know player location at all times, know player resistances, know player inventory ) or combat abilities (unlimited mana and ammo, heal 50% every third turn, uniques can slow you down, but you can't return the favor, etc)?

Are there specific sorts of information you think would be unfair for an AI to use?

You've got it.

Although monsters may have full knowledge of the dungeon, they hardly ever put this to good use by surrounding the player, taking tactical positions, or even fleeing effectively.

Knowing the player location when they shouldn't is certainly unfair. For some monsters, this ability can be attributed to scent trails, tracking ability, or ESP, but many just have no right to the information. The especially annoying gelatinous cube comes to mind.

In short, I'd like to see the monsters playing by the same set of rules afforded to the player including the use of items, weapons and amrours lying about (or at the very least, using the items they are going to drop when they die). As it stands now, the AI is inferior, and this is made up for by giving the monsters hugely inflated HP's and letting them get away with murder.

I don't expect any major to change to occur, but horde AI and class specific AI would be something. I suspect one would pretty much have to rewrite the entire game to implement the broader changes. Then you would have to come up one hell of an AI to keep players on their toes on a level, or maybe just slightly tilted, playing field. I don't even know if these changes would be desirable. One should be careful what one wishes for, but it's something to think about.

[Zikke]

If monsters want to spam heals more often, that's fine with me, but they should have more normalized healing effects and mana levels. Just like a player spamming heals, it might not be the most tactical use of mana and turns.

[Pete Mack]

@buzzkill -

The V AI simply can't be improved much without introducing monster mana. Just enable "monsters fight smarter" and it becomes extraordinarily hard to kill Mim, much less Morgoth and most high-level p's. I tried it a long time ago with a Paladin Dwarf, who can deal huge damage and take almost unlimited damage. I more or less reached a steady state where Morgoth had 5 stars, while dealing out around 500HP/turn of melee.