For anyone interested in object pricing issues

[Pete Mack]

I'm testing out 1375, and I was shocked when the half-elf [max 15000] at the mage shop only offered 1518 to my dwarf [ranger with chr 8] for a ring of resist poison, base value 16000 in object.txt.

Is this an artifact of the power pricing? If you drop the price much more, I might possibly consider them for their resistance rather than just money that takes up an inventory
slot.

P.S. lanterns of brightness are way underpriced

Yes, yes, and yes.

[Magnate]

I'm testing out 1375, and I was shocked when the half-elf [max 15000] at the mage shop only offered 1518 to my dwarf [ranger with chr 8] for a ring of resist poison, base value 16000 in object.txt.

Is this an artifact of the power pricing? If you drop the price much more, I might possibly consider them for their resistance rather than just money that takes up an inventory slot.

Thank you for that splendidly-phrased compliment.

P.S. lanterns of brightness are way underpriced

Yes, you have a point there. PLITE on lanterns is in the same category as speed on boots - it's worth more there than it is in other slots. Will think about this - needs a specific bit of code, I think, rather than just tinkering with power.

[Patashu]

PLITE on lanterns is in the same category as speed on boots - it's worth more there than it is in other slots. Will think about this - needs a specific bit of code, I think, rather than just tinkering with power.

I think the generalized phenomenon is that brightness is one of the best properties that appears on lighting; it would be like if you had an auxillary slot with mostly useless equipment but one type of ego with a useful ability; not the best, but because it's likely the best you'll use it for it should be worth more for that.

[PowerDiver]

Thank you for that splendidly-phrased compliment.
Yes, you have a point there. PLITE on lanterns is in the same category as speed on boots - it's worth more there than it is in other slots. Will think about this - needs a specific bit of code, I think, rather than just tinkering with power.

I've been thinking about this some more, and I think that the essence of pricing is that it is all about rarity issues. The above is just an example of that. Flags in slots where all flags are rare are worth more than the same flags in other slots.

At the end, you need SI and FA and ESP and rBlind and rConf and resists to fire/cold/elec/acid/poison. You also need +10 con, and around +5 to +10 to spellstat or +5 dex depending upon how you look at it, and +20 or maybe +30 speed. However, while the numbers add the powers and resists do not.

That means that in a uniform environment, you would want each item to have something like +0.5 wis/int/dex and +1 con and +3 speed and 1/10 chance of each required power or resist [assuming around 10 usable wieldable slots]. That's what you need to win.

Then the price of objects should be based upon how reality differs from the ideal. If con bonuses are not twice as common [weighted by pval] as int bonuses, then con bonuses should be priced higher. Confusion resistance is less valuable in an absolute sense versus fire resistance, but it is much rarer and so commands a high price tag. If average con bonus among items you expect to be wielding differs noticeably from 10 * prob(rConf) then that's another price adjustment one way or the other.

Complicating things further, the game proceeds in stages, so you might want to average perceived prices across needs and rarities at different points in the game. Further complications come from non-interchangeable flag distributions across slots.

Anyway, I'm just rambling, but I think there might be the germ of an approach buried in there somewhere.

[RogerN]

Trying out 1376. So far I like the pricing changes that I've seen, with one exception... A regular Sling (x2) (+0,+0) seems overpriced at its current value of 200+ gold. New characters should be able to slap down a few gold to buy a sling right off the bat. Even if it's not "balanced" compared to the cost of other launchers, I think the lowliest launcher should be more accessible.

[zaimoni]

I've been thinking about this some more, and I think that the essence of pricing is that it is all about rarity issues. The above is just an example of that. Flags in slots where all flags are rare are worth more than the same flags in other slots.

At the end, you need SI and FA and ESP and rBlind and rConf and resists to fire/cold/elec/acid/poison. You also need +10 con, and around +5 to +10 to spellstat or +5 dex depending upon how you look at it, and +20 or maybe +30 speed. However, while the numbers add the powers and resists do not.

....

Then the price of objects should be based upon how reality differs from the ideal. ....

Complicating things further, the game proceeds in stages, so you might want to average perceived prices across needs and rarities at different points in the game. Further complications come from non-interchangeable flag distributions across slots.

Anyway, I'm just rambling, but I think there might be the germ of an approach buried in there somewhere.

That is fairly close to the approach I would take for iteratively calculating the "correct" prices.

[Magnate]

That is fairly close to the approach I would take for iteratively calculating the "correct" prices.

Yes, it sounded like that to me too. I remain interested in seeing how it turns out.

[Magnate]

Trying out 1376. So far I like the pricing changes that I've seen, with one exception... A regular Sling (x2) (+0,+0) seems overpriced at its current value of 200+ gold. New characters should be able to slap down a few gold to buy a sling right off the bat. Even if it's not "balanced" compared to the cost of other launchers, I think the lowliest launcher should be more accessible.

I'm in two minds about this. I understand your point, but having played a few dozen games with the new prices I confess that I rather like the fact that new characters cannot afford a launcher on their first dive (I know that rangers' kit needs rebalancing). It makes finding stuff more fun, it makes the initial diving slightly harder (it makes Grip, Fang, Brodda and Bullroarer all much more dangerous, which in turn encourages diving past them).

It's a one-byte fix though, so if there's a prevailing view that this should be changed for 3.1.1, it can be done easily. I'm glad you like the rest of the prices.

[PaulBlay]

(I know that rangers' kit needs rebalancing)

I suggest that starting equipment cost be taken 'at cost' from the starter gold (or maybe at 75% cost). Starter gold could be increased equally for all characters to compensate. If this would leave them negative gold, give them ~50gold so they have pocket money to begin with.

It's a one-byte fix though, so if there's a prevailing view that this should be changed for 3.1.1, it can be done easily. I'm glad you like the rest of the prices.

I am agnostic on most price changes, but 200 gold seems fairly affordable. I think most classes would be able to reach that amount without great risk. Mages might be tricky; in Angband/65 they start with a couple of wands in their kit so they could always sell one if needed (or use them until they can afford a launcher).

[buzzkill]

... I rather like the fact that new characters cannot afford a launcher on their first dive...

I'm with you on this. The only shopping I normally do before my first dive is for WoR and Phase, and maybe some type of healing if it's not too far of a walk (and anything on sale). I much prefer to find my items in the dungeon. That said, I don't think 200 GP is out of reach of many starting characters. Certainly, it makes it a harder choice, which is what the new pricing is all about, isn't it?

[PowerDiver]

"You sold a Set of Gauntlets of Combat (+3,+3) [3,+17] (+2) (r) for 97 gold."

In a randart game, meaning Cambeleg not guaranteed, that would be endgame quality equipment. In a standart game, might be endgame equipment for a diver.

[Magnate]

"You sold a Set of Gauntlets of Combat (+3,+3) [3,+17] (+2) (r) for 97 gold."

That's a bug - the price should have been around the 20k mark. Please send me the relevant pricing.log file if you kept it.

EDIT: Hmm, it's more complicated than that - I was thinking of old JLE gloves of Combat, which gave +blows, and I had forgotten that they aggravate. The new gloves of combat should cost about 14k without aggravate, and about 1k with. This is a result of the negative value of aggravate being doubled, before I added the check for endgame-only items. Having added that check, I think the negative power may now be a little extreme - though to be honest even halving it again is going to leave these gauntlets costing about 5k rather than 14k.

Even so, it's still a bug that it turned out at 97gp rather than 1k.

[PowerDiver]

I ran across an old file while I was cleaning up that I saved on 2/4/08 called "worst feanor". Please tell me nothing like this will ever happen again with the new stuff.

q) The Robe of Feanor [2,+9] (+4)
It increases your intelligence by 4. It provides resistance to fire
and cold. It sustains your intelligence. It activates for haste
self (20+d20 turns) every 200 turns. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.

[saarn]

Trying out 1376. So far I like the pricing changes that I've seen, with one exception... A regular Sling (x2) (+0,+0) seems overpriced at its current value of 200+ gold. New characters should be able to slap down a few gold to buy a sling right off the bat. Even if it's not "balanced" compared to the cost of other launchers, I think the lowliest launcher should be more accessible.

I agree-- having a missile launcher of some flavor makes mages and ironman characters live a little bit longer, and lets warriors dive further on their first trip. If I can't buy one on my first trip to the dungeon, I normally at least stock up on arrows and flasks of oil to throw, but consider myself at a disadvantage.

[Magnate]

I ran across an old file while I was cleaning up that I saved on 2/4/08 called "worst feanor". Please tell me nothing like this will ever happen again with the new stuff.

q) The Robe of Feanor [2,+9] (+4)
It increases your intelligence by 4. It provides resistance to fire
and cold. It sustains your intelligence. It activates for haste
self (20+d20 turns) every 200 turns. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.

The name is completely independent of the original artifact (it's rare that the name generator comes up with any of the standard artifact names, but it does happen) - this is not based on the boots in artifact.txt

Oh wait a minute - yes it is - the activation is the same. This is when you stopped it randomising the names, right? I remember. Yes - that is a pretty crappy version of Feanor. That was before I doubled the value of speed - it was indeed undervalued before. Here's a selection of randarts based on Feanor from my recent games:

The Mace of Disruption of Glirilir (5d8) (+11,+26)
--------------------------------------------------
+3 charisma, speed.
Slays undead.
Branded with acid, lightning, frost.
Provides resistance to fire, confusion.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold. (take this as read for all of them)
Prevents paralysis.
Stops experience drain.

When activated, it hastens you for d20+20 turns.
Takes 200 turns to recharge. (and this)


The Short Bow 'Throst' (x2) (+18,+23)
-------------------------------------
+3 wisdom, constitution, shooting power.
Provides resistance to acid, fire, confusion, sound, shards.
Prevents paralysis.
Grants telepathy.
Aggravates creatures nearby.


The Green Dragon Scale Mail 'Ohath' (+3,+6) [30,+24]
----------------------------------------------------
Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold, poison, light, dark,
blindness, chaos.


The Two-Handed Great Flail of Drinaxe (3d6) (+12,+10)
-----------------------------------------------------
+8 dexterity, speed.
Slays dragons.
Branded with acid, venom.
Provides resistance to acid, fire.
Sustains charisma.


The Lead-Filled Mace of Andeb (4d3) (+7,+16)
--------------------------------------------
+4 strength, wisdom, constitution, charisma, speed.
Branded with frost.
Provides resistance to dark, nexus.
Blessed by the gods.
Prevents paralysis.
Grants the ability to see invisible things.


The Broad Sword of Mireth (2d5) (+16,+21)
-----------------------------------------
+5 intelligence, constitution, speed.
Slays animals, evil creatures, trolls, giants.
*Slays* dragons, demons.
Branded with lightning, flames.
Provides resistance to light, blindness, nexus.
Blessed by the gods.
Feather Falling.
Speeds regeneration.
Grants the ability to see invisible things.


... not so bad, eh?