Feature request: display char creation blows as if wielding whip

[Donald Jonker]

At the risk of further diluting Mr. Blay's ever increasing list..

It would be nice if the blows/round displayed at character creation responded as if the char were wielding a whip - thus obviating the need for trial and error with various combinations of STR and DEX to yield that extra blow. After nearly a year of play I still have to mess around suiciding characters to figure out how to optimize different class/race combos.

This would be useful for the variants as well. As far as I know, the only one that does it is sCthangband.

[Nick]

It would be nice if the blows/round displayed at character creation responded as if the char were wielding a whip - thus obviating the need for trial and error with various combinations of STR and DEX to yield that extra blow. After nearly a year of play I still have to mess around suiciding characters to figure out how to optimize different class/race combos.

This seems to me to be curing a symptom of the problem that characters are not given the optimal (buyable) starting weapon. What is needed is a change to either the starting weapon or the combat system.

[Magnate]

Eddie got this right. His code has the info for each weapon (obtained via 'I'nspecting it or via chardump) include the requirements for the next blow. So:

You currently get X blows per round with each weapon. With an additional +Y STR you would get X+1 blows. With an additional +Z DEX you would get X+1 blows.

Until the combat system is revised, I reckon that's the best solution.

[PaulBlay]

Eddie got this right. His code has the info for each weapon (obtained via 'I'nspecting it or via chardump) include the requirements for the next blow. So:

You currently get X blows per round with each weapon. With an additional +Y STR you would get X+1 blows. With an additional +Z DEX you would get X+1 blows.

Until the combat system is revised, I reckon that's the best solution.

That sounds good to me. I would make it

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
F033 0 "Import 'extra blow with +? STR or +? DEX' code from Eddie

Eddie got this right. His code has the info for each weapon (obtained via 'I'nspecting it or via chardump) include the requirements for the next blow. So:

You currently get X blows per round with each weapon. With an additional +Y STR you would get X+1 blows. With an additional +Z DEX you would get X+1 blows.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me know if you want it added to the pool

[Nick]

I think Donald's point is that the information is needed on character creation, so before character dumps, 'I' etc are available. The problem is (for example) warriors starting with a broad sword, and so not being able to work out what STR/DEX combination the need to get maximum blows with a lighter weapon.

My point is that this means either the starting weapon is wrong, or (if you believe warriors should start with a broad sword) changes to combat are needed. Unless, of course, you think that there is a point to starting with a non-optimal weapon.

[Narvius]

Unless, of course, you think that there is a point to starting with a non-optimal weapon.

It has a point when shopping is disabled.

[PowerDiver]

You currently get X blows per round with each weapon. With an additional +Y STR you would get X+1 blows. With an additional +Z DEX you would get X+1 blows.

Until the combat system is revised, I reckon that's the best solution.

It is still not complete. Sometimes a westernesse(+2) weapon will give an extra blow even though +2 to one stat or the other is not enough. OTOH, anything complete seems to produce overly clunky descriptions, so I settled for the above. If the westernesse is on sale at a store, at least you see the blows if you look at it.

[Donald Jonker]

I think Donald's point is that the information is needed on character creation, so before character dumps, 'I' etc are available. The problem is (for example) warriors starting with a broad sword, and so not being able to work out what STR/DEX combination the need to get maximum blows with a lighter weapon.

Exactly - I was thinking of the blows/round display during character creation when distributing stat points. Then you wouldn't need to restart chars upon being disappointed when inspecting gear at the weaponsmith.

Of course, Eddie's improvement to inspection UI is lovely as well, and would be a welcome addition.

My point is that this means either the starting weapon is wrong, or (if you believe warriors should start with a broad sword) changes to combat are needed. Unless, of course, you think that there is a point to starting with a non-optimal weapon.

Starting chars out with lighter weapons is also ideal, but I still think the whip should be the point of reference, independent of whether a class begins with a whip, dagger, main gauche, or rapier, since it's the lightest. I've never run into a situation where you can get extra blows with a whip but not with a dagger or main gauche, but it's probably possible. The extra blows are much more important than which particular weapon you achieve them with. And for the sake of flavor, I don't think it would be a good idea to start everyone out with a whip - you always buy one on the cheap anyway.

[Big Al]

(A bit off topic, but) I'm thinking that starting weapons and/or the way blows are calculated should be changed eventually. The only people who don't sell their board swords at the start of the game are brand new players that don't know any better - and the brand new players are the people who most need help at the start of the game.

But yes, knowing how many blows you get for a good starting weapon would be nice at the char creation screen.

[Nick]

I'm thinking that starting weapons and/or the way blows are calculated should be changed eventually. The only people who don't sell their board swords at the start of the game are brand new players that don't know any better - and the brand new players are the people who most need help at the start of the game.

Well, I tried to nudge someone else into saying it, but I think this is the closest I'm going to get.

The obvious solution is O combat.

*ducks*

[Donald Jonker]

The obvious solution is O combat.

*ducks*

lol. We have O for that, now don't we?

There don't seem to be many impassioned proponents of V's combat, but I'm one of them. I find it very intuitive and would be sorry to see it go. I like O combat as well.. but being able to roll up a character and lay into enemies with 4 blows of a main gauche gives me such satisfaction - one of the main things that hooked me on Angband to begin with.

V-

[Nick]

There don't seem to be many impassioned proponents of V's combat, but I'm one of them. I find it very intuitive and would be sorry to see it go. I like O combat as well.. but being able to roll up a character and lay into enemies with 4 blows of a main gauche gives me such satisfaction - one of the main things that hooked me on Angband to begin with.

I actually agree. I do think it's a little silly that you can't start with the 'right' weapon, but there actually doesn't seem to be a very good solution. Except maybe (and this is probably Eddie's idea, as usual) starting with no gear at all, and you start out by shopping. Just like a real life dungeon adventure

[Magnate]

Ok, there seem to be three things here, in ascending order of complexity:

1. Implement Eddie's "with +Z [STR|DEX] you would get X+1 blows" in 3.1.x

2. Implement a blows calculator for use at character creation

3. Re-work blows in V to be more intuitive and less reliant on STR/DEX breakpoints

The first seems fairly uncontroversial - it's one of those UI improvements to which it's hard to imagine anyone objecting. I have an old set of Eddie's sources somewhere, so I'll try to get this working (@Takkaria: I won't commit it until you give the go-ahead; @Eddie: I take your point about Westernesse etc. but I think your existing solution is fine for the vast majority of cases).

The second requires some careful design, because it needs to be available before choosing point-based or autoroller (it is of course irrelevant if one is going to use the standard roller), but after choosing race and class. I'm thinking of something simple like a number for weapon weight which you can increment or decrement like a stat, and as you do so the calculator updates the STR/DEX combinations required for two, three or four blows. If Takkaria likes this idea, it could go on trac for 3.1.2 or later.

The third is a whole can of worms. I'm a huge fan of O combat myself, but I can see the arguments for not bringing it into V. I think a good first move would be to re-do the blows table as energy-per-blow figures, not #blows. Then you could smooth out the breakpoints but still have the same number of blows with the same combinations as now. Then you can make other improvements around weapon weight etc. etc. Lots to do.

[Big Al]

The third is a whole can of worms. I'm a huge fan of O combat myself, but I can see the arguments for not bringing it into V. I think a good first move would be to re-do the blows table as energy-per-blow figures, not #blows. Then you could smooth out the breakpoints but still have the same number of blows with the same combinations as now. Then you can make other improvements around weapon weight etc. etc. Lots to do.

(Another somewhat aside note: ) I've never really understood why multiple blows per round and shots per round act differently. With archery, you get to aim individual shots, but with melee you pick one direction and all your blows go there. Is there any reason for this? I suppose that it would take ~6 times longer to hit something if you get six hits per round (if melee worked the same as archery), but still it's kind of odd.

[will_asher]

I know quite a lot of my posts are stating the hack, fix, or solution I have used / plan to use for DaJAngband, but oh well. If there's something I think will improve the game and I know how to do it, I put it in DaJAngband (or at least put it on my todo list for DaJAngband).
Anyway, in DaJAngband what I did about blows and weapon weight was:
-double strengh bonus for heavy weapons (more than 15lb)
-no strength bonus for very light weapons (less than 4lb)
-add strength bonus before multipliers
(Not implemented in the current release yet, it is in the next one though)

I like the idea of #2 in Magnate's post, and if I figure out how to do it (I'm pretty sure I can), I'll probably put it in DaJAngband, but it isn't high priority.