on shops - a newbies perspective

[buzzkill]

I've never understood why the number of consumables in stores should be limited. Being forced to play without necessary items isn't fun, and town scumming isn't fun, so why not just let the character be able to buy what he needs when he's in town? It's what the gold is for, after all. I want to be able to spend the money I've gathered in the dungeon, and I want to be able to spend it on relevant items.

Some might find it challenging, others, have the option of scumming.
Certain items being out of stock at certain times, is the whim of the RNG. The very heart and soul of Angband....blah, blah, blah....
If you had a choice of all 'so-called' necessities being in stock all the time, but nothing 'non-essential' would ever be sold, or the shops being maintained the way they are now, which would you choose?

[CJNyfalt]

If you had a choice of all 'so-called' necessities being in stock all the time, but nothing 'non-essential' would ever be sold, or the shops being maintained the way they are now, which would you choose?

The first one: necessities in stock all the time. Black market and dungeon drops are for 'non-essential' stuff.

[bebo]

So... these !rStat being so vital, when you find one in the dungeon (assuming you don't need it immediately), do you bother to lug it to the surface with you, so you can store it in your home for when you need it, or do you leave it lying on he dungeon floor, so you can cram yet another {excellent} longsword into your pack to sell topside. I mean, between the 'shrooms and the potions, they are not all that rare.

exactly my point - in any case i'd raver reserve the inventory slot to an ego item rather than a !rStat - since they are available in the shop, either directly or via scumming. I was proposing giving them fixed slots in order to avoid having to scum for them, to increase the "fun" factor. It's not a problem regarding rarity, but rather inventory management.

EDIT - now, a more radical approach would be to not make them available in the shop altogether and increase their drop rate, or whatever. But i have no clue as to how something like this might affect gameplay, balance, etc.

[PaulBlay]

I would suggest allowing the ordering of most items in advance (at a premium price).

Alternatively you could allow 'investment' in shops and give your character influence over the shop's purchasing decisions based on how much you've invested.

[Djabanete]

Donald J has it right: if the basics (so-called) are permanently in stock, it becomes impossible to force restock. This means there's no way to force the other items--like ?Recharge--to occur, even if you want them desperately.

...And why can't there be unlimited ?Recharging? (That is, why can't every item that occurs naturally in the Alchemy Shop be unlimited in quantity?)

Sorry, I'm not trying to be dense, I just don't see where the fundamental problem lies.

[Atarlost]

Why not simply reset the stock of basics to 99 every time you enter the town? It's superficially more hackish than making them infinite, but does not produce any problem with store buyout and makes them effectively infinite.

[Pete Mack]

...And why can't there be unlimited ?Recharging? (That is, why can't every item that occurs naturally in the Alchemy Shop be unlimited in quantity?)

Sorry, I'm not trying to be dense, I just don't see where the fundamental problem lies.

Because some of the stuff available in the shops is unbalancing if available in excess, especially early in the game. (In particular, ?to_dam and ?to_hit. Taken together, they also make heavy curses almost meaningless.)

Anyway, the basic model (with easy-restock command) is not obviously broken, at least to me. It's the kind of thing where a conservative "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude makes sense to me.

[buzzkill]

Sorry, I'm not trying to be dense, I just don't see where the fundamental problem lies.

Like Pete said, the problem lies in the balance. Having everything you want available in stores all the time will make the game that much easier (even if it costs more).

So how do you compensate for that? The first thing that pops into my mind is to then make items less available in the dungeon. If you walk down that path far enough, pretty soon monsters only drop gold, and anything you want you can buy in town. That's just not Angband.

Angband is a very difficult game. It's supposed to be that way. Not every one gets to kill Morgoth. I'd like to keep it that way. It's what sets Angband apart from other similar games.

[bebo]

Because some of the stuff available in the shops is unbalancing if available in excess, especially early in the game. (In particular, ?to_dam and ?to_hit. Taken together, they also make heavy curses almost meaningless.)

Anyway, the basic model (with easy-restock command) is not obviously broken, at least to me. It's the kind of thing where a conservative "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude makes sense to me.

the problem being that for those willing to scum (and i shamelessly admit i do ) in all practical terms they are available in infinite quantity. I think very few players are good enough to take in consideration turn count when playing - staying alive is already a huge challenge in itself.

That said my initial argument wasn't for ?to_dam ?to_hit ?recharge et al (which i admit are quite powerful and shouldn't be easily AND abundantly available), but rather for !rStat, for which a high or low number available doesn't really imply that much - you only need one (and i think very few people reserve inventory or house slots to hoard them)

in any case i agree that the system isn't broke, my few suggestions had the objective to reduce the scumming necessary for those willing to do it, without impacting on gameplay too much for those willing not to. I admit that i didn't take into consideration the store buyout-restock mechanic though - i never got that far in the game myself to repeatedly use it

[miyazaki]

Angband is a very difficult game. It's supposed to be that way. Not every one gets to kill Morgoth. I'd like to keep it that way. It's what sets Angband apart from other similar games.

+1

if !rSTAT are available all the time, why have ego items that sustain your stats? why have the undead drain your experience? Of course the draining is annoying, of course it makes the game harder. that is the point. the rings of soulkeeping/bodykeep should have a role in the gameplay!

i like that the newest version of the town decreases the number of scrolls of enchant, etc. when i am in town, i buy the potions that are available and keep them in my house.

keep the stores as they are, let the town-scummers waste their time!

[PowerDiver]

if !rSTAT are available all the time, why have ego items that sustain your stats? why have the undead drain your experience?

The reason is so that if you want to deal with those effects in the dungeon, it takes a slot. More than anything else, angband is a game of slot management. If you carry !rStr down with you, that is a slot that cannot carry ?map instead.

I wouldn't mind even full restore for free whenever you return to town. I'm not suggesting that, but IMO it would not change the nature of the game, and it would be better than a system where unlimited rStat is available through tedium but not without tedium.

An expensive store service, maybe 2K, along with completely removing !rStat in town could also be interesting in a game without selling so that money is tight. But the first step is setting things up so that there are no tedious workarounds.

If money is considered a significant resource, it would be bad game design to set things up so that tedious approaches are rewarded with cheaper prices. So, IMO, if !rStat is allowed to show up in the stores, the store service should be for the same price.

[bebo]

An expensive store service, maybe 2K, along with completely removing !rStat in town could also be interesting in a game without selling so that money is tight. But the first step is setting things up so that there are no tedious workarounds.

this! excellent idea - i totally support it! Though i don't really get the part where you say "in a game without selling" - 2K per stat seems pretty fair even in the current economy framework, potions cost around 350 right? it's a pretty big premium. The only negative point being the fact that the player can't anymore buy the potions to carry in the dungeon in case of necessity - a pretty far fetched situation in any case