on shops - a newbies perspective

[bebo]

recently with my last characters i found myself consistently town-scumming in order to get the shops to spawn the right potions of restore stat, and occasionally scrolls of enchant weapon, in order to enchant my longbow, which more often than not i also havo to scum for in order to buy after i recall for the first time.

Now, i understand the significance of the relatively random generation of the stock of shops, but i think that for some of the more important consumables a fixed spot (like in the general store) would enhance the fun without having a significant impact on gameplay; maybe increasing price to balance the fact that you are sure to find what you need.

In the initial phases of the game, when you are (i presume) more likely to need this kind of stuff, gold is still an issue, so i don't see many chances for abuse.

Any thoughts?

As a caveat i must say that i am pretty new to the game, and never got lower than dlvl 45 or clvl 32 - so i'm probably missing the big picture

[Donald Jonker]

This is a valid critique. IMO, NPP gets it right by providing all the necessaries at a higher premium via shop services. The one exception being ?WoR and ?phase are not guaranteed, which hopefully will be fixed in the newly arriving version.

I presume the reason for denying the player guaranteed necessities is to force him/her to try and make do without - providing interesting tactical challenges - how can a warrior survive without _telSelf? how can a mage survive with severely drained int? &c. These kinds of challenges sound interesting on paper, but I've never actually found them to be so in practice. OTOH it is fun to read Eddie's blurbs about making it down to 3500' with a (+0,+2) whip and a pile of iron spikes...

So I townscum, which is the lesser of two evils in my book. But takkaria will be revisiting town-stocking in 3.1.1 (I think) so perhaps matters will improve (though I doubt to the point where townscumming will be rendered completely unnecessary to people like me).

[tigpup]

This is a valid critique. IMO, NPP gets it right by providing all the necessaries at a higher premium via shop services.

The NPP way is indeed useful, but can lead to some problems.

!Heal is always available for between 16,000 and 20,000 gold. Which makes gold very useful towards the end. I've gone down to face Sauron having bought 50 !Heal, which makes things a little easier

(oh - and I town-scum in NPP sometimes too)

-Neil.

[Zikke]

I believe Takkaria was asking for feedback on which items should be in stock in the shops and which items are most useful at various clvls.

[bebo]

i'd probably say:

essential:
- the 4 basic magic/prayer books
- all potions of restore stat
- staffs of teleport

very useful (ie worth town-scumming for):
- staffs of magic mapping and identify
- potion of restore life
- potion of CLW / CMW / CCW (not sure which one, maybe all?)
- longbow
- scrolls of enchant weapon (not sure on this one - might be too unbalancing)

as for clvl, i think it might be very class dependant, and don't really have the experience to give input regarding that

ps - i was reding the other thread about iron spikes - my personal view on the matter is that they may as well be taken out of the game, but it may be too radical a choice

[Larvitz]

ps - i was reding the other thread about iron spikes - my personal view on the matter is that they may as well be taken out of the game, but it may be too radical a choice

Would you maybe be referring to my thread?

[bebo]

yep, that's it

[Pete Mack]

There is rarely a fixed list of items I want from the stores. I rarely want spell book 4, because it becomes useful so late in the game. I do want ?Recharge sometimes, and _dEvil or _dInvis. Sometimes I need a stack of !rCold or !rHeat. Sometimes I need !Hero, and ?Bless or ?Chant. Sometimes I need ?remove curse.

Certainly I use many of the above as often as most !rStat potions.

Really, I think buying out stores is not a bad solution. It's just annoying to do, as things stand now. And there's usually no other use for all that gold that gets stacked up in a game.

[Donald Jonker]

Really, I think buying out stores is not a bad solution. It's just annoying to do, as things stand now. And there's usually no other use for all that gold that gets stacked up in a game.

I agree on this point. The solution in Eddie's patch of having a command that buys out the store without laboriously moving the contents it to your inventory is something that ought to be adopted. If the Maintainer (peace be upon his name) is loath to implement NPP's store services, this would be a good half-measure.

Although it seems in 3.1 that healing, *healing* and *remove curse* and other endgame consumables are less frequent at the black market than has been previous. But maybe that's just because I recently got to a point in the game where I was in dire need of such things, which hasn't regularly been the case.

[bebo]

i totally forgot abou _dEvil and _dInvis doh!

?remove curse, with the new changes in the id system, doesn't really seem that vital to me, i've actually have to use it once yet... (maybe i just got lucky)

i see how ?recharge can be very useful with powerful staves/wands, but my main point was in having items that you consistently and often need always available, this doesn't seem like the case

my argument with !rStat is that in most cases i find myself scumming for them, since reduced stats have a huge impact on my chars performance - having them always available simply reduces the annoyance factor

i agree with the 4th book being useful only later on, i was suggesting it probably out of "cosmetic" (lacking a better term) reasons more than anything else - having the first three and not the fourth always there seems kinda wrong

regarding the others, it's probably my playstyle that is lacking something, as i see that almost everyone is using !Hero et al. , while i almost never use them.

EDIT: regarding store buyout, if i'm correct it's an option only available in the later stages of the game, when you have loads of cash - but most items are necessary early on ...

[buzzkill]

My argument with !rStat is that in most cases i find myself scumming for them, since reduced stats have a huge impact on my chars performance - having them always available simply reduces the annoyance factor

So... these !rStat being so vital, when you find one in the dungeon (assuming you don't need it immediately), do you bother to lug it to the surface with you, so you can store it in your home for when you need it, or do you leave it lying on he dungeon floor, so you can cram yet another {excellent} longsword into your pack to sell topside. I mean, between the 'shrooms and the potions, they are not all that rare.

I know I always do the latter, but I don't consider !rStat to be all that vital.

Restore Life Levels on the other hand, now that's vital!

[PowerDiver]

So... these !rStat being so vital, when you find one in the dungeon (assuming you don't need it immediately), do you bother to lug it to the surface with you

The other point is that you shouldn't be restoring a stat just because it is down 1 or 2 unless you have a spare restore for later.

It helps to use the full power of the autoroller in pre-3.1 to get your stats high enough that you can afford to lose a point, or when using current point-based put all your points into primary stats to cope a bit with drainage.

[Djabanete]

I've never understood why the number of consumables in stores should be limited. Being forced to play without necessary items isn't fun, and town scumming isn't fun, so why not just let the character be able to buy what he needs when he's in town? It's what the gold is for, after all. I want to be able to spend the money I've gathered in the dungeon, and I want to be able to spend it on relevant items.

Edit: and from the perspective of those who are concerned with turncount, and are worried that this could make things too easy: do you really want the survival of your character (if you refuse to scum) or the lowness of your turncount (if you do scum) to be put in jeopardy simply by the whim of the shopkeeper? Random denial of essentials has never struck me as a fun mechanic to have to play around.

[Donald Jonker]

I've never understood why the number of consumables in stores should be limited. Being forced to play without necessary items isn't fun, and town scumming isn't fun, so why not just let the character be able to buy what he needs when he's in town? It's what the gold is for, after all.

One answer is to allow buying out stores - but if everything is in permanent stock, this could perhaps only apply to the weaponsmith, armor shop, black market, and perhaps temple (maybe the weapons would just be merged into the weaponsmith).

[Pete Mack]

I've never understood why the number of consumables in stores should be limited. Being forced to play without necessary items isn't fun, and town scumming isn't fun, so why not just let the character be able to buy what he needs when he's in town? It's what the gold is for, after all. I want to be able to spend the money I've gathered in the dungeon, and I want to be able to spend it on relevant items.

Donald J has it right: if the basics (so-called) are permanently in stock, it becomes impossible to force restock. This means there's no way to force the other items--like ?Recharge--to occur, even if you want them desperately.

Of course if there were a forced buyout option (hint, hint) you could cater to both wishes: common things always avialable; less common things easily available for a large premium.