Races

[Bandobras]

I am considering proposing some changes to the V races to Andrew Sidwell, that hero of maintenance.

I'm sympathizing with the general idea of making the races game-play-wise distinct and with a lot of your particular proposals, but I think some of them would be much better implemented as even more radical changes in a variant (and many _are_ implemented so). Here I'll try to think in terms what fits V. BTW, also the non-game-play-related renaming and switching the races from D&D to Third Age, as in Un or S, seems a good idea to me, but perhaps the D&D and ad-hoc fantasy mix approach is already a part of the identity of Vanilla. I don't know.

1. Changes that I believe are uncontroversial:

All agreed.

2. Mildly controversial:
- Giving dwarves faster pseudo-id of hard armor and shields
- Giving elves and high elves faster pseudo-id of shooters and ammo

I think it is too much and not much enough. I'd either drop it or propose some bigger change, easily visible to a player, like character-sheet visible aptitude (combat and id, don't forget the shield bashes!) as in O with some on-hit and on-pick-up messages, or different kind of pseudo in these areas, as is in Un for classes, or instant pseudo at the latest. Probably only the last one is vanilla enough.

- Making kobolds, half-trolls and half-orcs show as k, T and o respectively, instead of an @

No opinion. I've played games where it works, though. However, I hate options...

- Allowing dwarves and gnomes to occasionally detect mineable treasure within a range of several grids

Too mild, again. Does it trigger disturbance? I'd trigger it every move or add it as a hook to every detection spell (also from scrolls and devices). Make sure to mark it somehow on the player sheet and perhaps add in some tunneling or bigger $$$ from treasure to round it up a bit.

- Giving gnomes a much better Magic Device skill (over 20, c.f. 12 now)
- Allowing gnomes to ID rods, wands and staffs on pickup

Agreed. Gnomes are not cannon so I'd think about them as a D&D race or, for Tolkien fans, as Shadow Fairies' cousins. Then it fits and makes for a nicely distinct race.

- Splitting bows/throwing into two skills - bows, and slings/throwing. Would be equal for all classes and races, except hobbits, rogues and half-trolls would have better slings/throwing and elves and rangers would have better bows.

Antoine, you are a genius! What can I say more?

- Restricting hobbits from wielding super heavy melee weapons (25 lb or more), but giving them an intrinsic +1 speed to compensate

Again, too much and not enough. I'd rather do this via STR, but then, indeed, hobbits shouldn't get STR equal to Trolls...

- Making half-elves much more able.

I'm quite firmly convinced half-elves should be removed from V. This is based on game-play, not on theme or any variant or literary sentiments. I also agree that humans should be changed: either make them much weaker (yeeks, -5 to all stats) or much stronger (+2 to all stats). So far they are bland.

4. Too controversial:
- Never allowing stats to rise above 18/(200 + 10X), where X is the stat racial bonus (so, for instance, a dwarf could never have Int over 18/170)

I still don't understand it. It's probably a huge change for V, but if that's what it takes to make races different also in the end-game, perhaps it's worth the revolution. But then you wouldn't need to ban heavy weapons to Hobbits, just tweak the current bans based on STR.

[Antoine]

I'm sympathizing with the general idea of making the races game-play-wise distinct and with a lot of your particular proposals, but I think some of them would be much better implemented as even more radical changes in a variant (and many _are_ implemented so). Here I'll try to think in terms what fits V. BTW, also the non-game-play-related renaming and switching the races from D&D to Third Age, as in Un or S, seems a good idea to me, but perhaps the D&D and ad-hoc fantasy mix approach is already a part of the identity of Vanilla. I don't know.

Noted. I reply in the same spirit (of what is appropriate for V).

Like you, I think it would be great to have renamed races (though I'd prefer the FA set) but I don't think it's appropriate for the more D&D-based Vanilla.

>> Giving dwarves faster pseudo-id of hard armor and shields
>> Giving elves and high elves faster pseudo-id of shooters and ammo
> I think it is too much and not much enough. I'd either drop it or propose
> some bigger change, easily visible to a player, like character-sheet visible
> aptitude (combat and id, don't forget the shield bashes!) as in O with
> some on-hit and on-pick-up messages, or different kind of pseudo in
> these areas, as is in Un for classes, or instant pseudo at the latest.
> Probably only the last one is vanilla enough.

Well, my proposal is not too far from your instant pseudo (given that 3.1.0 pseudo seems to be pretty fast all round).

>> Making kobolds, half-trolls and half-orcs show as k, T and o respectively, instead of an @
> No opinion. I've played games where it works, though. However, I hate options...

Yeah too many options is bad, I'm now more thinking to abandon this one.

>> Allowing dwarves and gnomes to occasionally detect mineable treasure
>> within a range of several grids
> Too mild, again. Does it trigger disturbance? I'd trigger it every move or
> add it as a hook to every detection spell (also from scrolls and devices).
> Make sure to mark it somehow on the player sheet and perhaps add in
> some tunneling or bigger $$$ from treasure to round it up a bit.

No, not triggering disturbance. Yes, occuring every move is probably best.
How would I mark it on the character sheet?
I was already proposing to give dwarves +2 tunnelling, which helps to complete the package. I was then thinking of making tunnelling a 'secondary stat' on the character sheet - perhaps replacing FIghting and SHooting (which IMO should be rolled into the numeric displays of melee and missile to-hit)

>> Giving gnomes a much better Magic Device skill (over 20, c.f. 12 now)
>> Allowing gnomes to ID rods, wands and staffs on pickup
> Agreed. Gnomes are not cannon so I'd think about them as a D&D race
> or, for Tolkien fans, as Shadow Fairies' cousins. Then it fits and makes
> for a nicely distinct race.

Yeah. I don't really have a coherent mental image of gnomes, but if anything I think of them as Dragonlance-style tinkerers. Hence devices aptitude.

> I also agree that humans should be changed: either make them much
> weaker (yeeks, -5 to all stats) or much stronger (+2 to all stats).
> So far they are bland.

Aren't they supposed to be bland?

>> - Never allowing stats to rise above 18/(200 + 10X), where X is the stat
>> racial bonus (so, for instance, a dwarf could never have Int over 18/170)
> I still don't understand it.

A better way to express it would be to say 'cap equipment bonuses to primary scores at +10' - as Nick (I think) pointed out. Point is, as you note, to create diversity in the end game.

Can't see it happening though.

A.

[Nick]

Like you, I think it would be great to have renamed races (though I'd prefer the FA set) but I don't think it's appropriate for the more D&D-based Vanilla.

I think it would be great to see a new set of V races - but there are more to choose from than the FA ones. The Un races would be a good place to start.

[Nick]

Further on possible races - I'd be inclined to remove Human, Elf, and Half-Elf (as relatively flavourless) and add some from the following list:

Wood-Elf
Grey-Elf
Green-Elf
Dark-Elf
Maia
Ent
Druadan
Man of Bree
Man of Erech
Man of Dale
Man of Rohan
Man of Gondor
Man of Harad
Ice-man of Forochel
Easterling
Dunlending
Beorning
Orc
Stone Troll
Maybe more types of Dwarf

And please - Steel Bows of Numenor. Just about the coolest weapon ever, and I can't have them in FA

[andrewdoull]

Further on possible races

Grey-Elf
Green-Elf
Dark-Elf
Ice-man of Forochel

And please - Steel Bows of Numenor. Just about the coolest weapon ever, and I can't have them in FA

Bandobras - how did we miss these in Unangband? We need these in stat.

Nick - you might want to add Giants to the above list...

Andrew

[takkaria]

I wonder if there's any chance of getting some stats on what % of V players use which races from the Ladder? It might shed some interesting light on the discussion.

*looks in Pav's direction *

[Daniel Fishman]

That's easy. Of characters uploaded to the ladder:

28.6% High-Elf
14.8% Dwarf
12.8% Dunadan
8.3% Half-Troll
8.1% Human
5.8% Gnome
5.4% Hobbit
4.4% Half-Elf
4.3% Kobold
4.1% Half-Orc
3.3% Elf

[takkaria]

That's easy. Of characters uploaded to the ladder:

28.6% High-Elf
14.8% Dwarf
12.8% Dunadan
8.3% Half-Troll
8.1% Human
5.8% Gnome
5.4% Hobbit
4.4% Half-Elf
4.3% Kobold
4.1% Half-Orc
3.3% Elf

Is that V characters or all characters?

EDIT: looks like just V characters. Interesting statistics. Suggests that half-elf and half-orc could be removed with no real loss.

[Jungle_Boy]

Is that V characters or all characters?

EDIT: looks like just V characters. Interesting statistics. Suggests that half-elf and half-orc could be removed with no real loss.

Half-Orcs could be low because they have not been in the game as long as others. Also they are my favorite warrior so leave them alone

[Daniel Fishman]

Is that V characters or all characters?

EDIT: looks like just V characters. Interesting statistics. Suggests that half-elf and half-orc could be removed with no real loss.

Yes, just V characters.

[Big Al]

Some good ideas here. A few comments:

- Making kobolds, half-trolls and half-orcs show as k, T and o respectively, instead of an @

This doesn't really make any sense unless you make dwarves and elves 'h' and humans 'p' etc. Then you wouldn't even have an '@'. Then we'd need a whole new logo!

- Allowing dwarves and gnomes to occasionally detect mineable treasure within a range of several grids

If you want to bump this up a bit, allow dwarves to detect all treasure in a radius around them. Not overpowering by any means, but makes them a little bit more interesting.

- Giving gnomes a much better Magic Device skill (over 20, c.f. 12 now)
- Allowing gnomes to ID rods, wands and staffs on pickup

That seems too powerful - maybe make them id only one of the three (eg. wands)?

- Restricting hobbits from wielding super heavy melee weapons (25 lb or more), but giving them an intrinsic +1 speed to compensate

I don't particularly associate hobbits with quickness - more like Elves if anything. Bandobras' idea of basing it solely on STR is a good one.

- Making half-elves much more able. Currently we have a D&D half-elf (basically a funny looking human) rather than a true Tolkien half-elf (who were exceptionally able at everything - look at Elrond). I'd like to see all their scores raised by several points and their experience modifier up to about 150.

I think half-elves could either be made much more interesting or removed - and I don't think that just raising their stats is going to make them more interesting. High-elves will still be better, so they would get played instead.

- Never allowing stats to rise above 18/(200 + 10X), where X is the stat racial bonus (so, for instance, a dwarf could never have Int over 18/170)

Similarly implemented (?) as non-maximize mode.

[Antoine]

>> [Hobbits having +1 speed and not being able to wield super heavy weapons
> I don't particularly associate hobbits with quickness - more like Elves if
> anything. Bandobras' idea of basing it solely on STR is a good one.

There are already some STR-based restrictions on the use of heavy weapons - is there general approval for the notion of making them more restrictive? I had expected not.

I had felt that a hobbit would not be able to wield the hugest weapons, no matter how high his STR was, because he would be too short.

>> [Poorly described stat cap proposal]
> Similarly implemented (?) as non-maximize mode.

I explained myself poorly here, I think.

What I am proposing is that equipment bonuses to stats would be capped at +10.

A dwarf's 'naked' Int is already capped at 18/70. Currently in V, he can put on Int-boost equipment and raise it over 18/200 if he wants. Under my (somewhat hopeful) proposal, he would only be able to raise it to 18/170 with equipment.

A.

[Bandobras]

Bandobras - how did we miss these in Unangband? We need these in stat.

You try my patience. You know very well I think we have too many races in Un. Twice too many, including the evil races. Actually, I got convinced about the humans (and perhaps giants), as long as we keep them so close together. But still there is more races than distinct areas in the abilities space (especially after you gutted and averaged the stats ). And while I now like races kept only for the flavour (just as the numerous kinds of humans), I don't like races that differ in abilities significantly, but not enough to give them a clear character.

[Pete Mack]

Half-elf and elf are very similar challenge races, so people are unlikely to play both. Half-Orc is a pretty good class for rogues and warriors.

[andrewdoull]

You try my patience. You know very well I think we have too many races in Un. Twice too many, including the evil races. Actually, I got convinced about the humans (and perhaps giants), as long as we keep them so close together. But still there is more races than distinct areas in the abilities space (especially after you gutted and averaged the stats ). And while I now like races kept only for the flavour (just as the numerous kinds of humans), I don't like races that differ in abilities significantly, but not enough to give them a clear character.

One nice thing about the races is it gives the ability for the player to empathize with their character more. There's not a huge amount of in game distinction between the various "Man of" races, but each is quite unique culturally.

Andrew