Rogues in the current version

[Egavactip]

I've stopped playing rogues. It used to be one of my favorite character classes to play, but it is not fun anymore. The changes ruined it. I would like it to go back to what it was before.

[ewert]

Out of curiosity, what do you find you miss from the old rogue?

[PowerDiver]

BTW, who thinks that mushrooms of shadows need to last longer?

Seeing as food value is a curse, and I'm sure I'm not joking now, at a minimum food effects should last as long as the food does. If you eat nothing but mushrooms of shadows, you should have continuous coverage IMO.

[Pete Mack]

They actually did "live by their wits but could fight their way out of a tight space.*" The new rogue simply cannot do the latter. It had all the buffs and utility spells of mage and ranger, plus detect object, stealth, very good melee and archery, and solid HP and starting stats. The best all around class. What's not to like?

* quote from the user's manual.

Out of curiosity, what do you find you miss from the old rogue?

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I guess I'm an outlier, as Dunadan Rogue is my favorite class combination in the latest versions. And I've played every race/class combo there is.

Rogues remain a reasonably balanced fighter, have great stealth and trap disarming, and the ability to detect objects (not just *, but actually what the objects are), and to detect stairs, make for the best ability to dive deep and play fast.

[PowerDiver]

Rogues remain a reasonably balanced fighter, have great stealth and trap disarming, and the ability to detect objects (not just *, but actually what the objects are), and to detect stairs, make for the best ability to dive deep and play fast.

I can't quantify it, but compared to my memories from a decade ago, rogues seem to do significantly worse at melee.

For my experiments to see how the game has changed, I have not been diving. I wonder how many people care about stair detection other than serious divers.

Even when rogues say they have 100% disarming, sometimes chests explode while disarming. So my rogues still chose to carry -disarm. That's not precisely a weakness, but it was very irritating.

[tom]

I like 4.2 rogues, and have won with them more than any other class. But they could use a few tweaks. One thing is that by the mid game, success rate for stealing is too low, so they essentially lose that ability. This should probably be fixed. The multiplier to damage when attacking sleeping monsters is a good idea, and gives a unique feel to class. I tried both these changes in tactical angband, and liked them.

[malcontent]

I'm like Ingwe, rogue is my preferred class, though I lean to High-elf.

I think Nick did a great job with the latest version of the rogue. It is definitely its own little niche in Angband.

Not great (but not bad) at melee at the start, but so darn good at throwing and shooting. And hands down the best detection of any class. The first detection spell finds evil and life and the treasure detection spell is like a cheat code, telling you exactly what is where. Stealth helps.

The class is built for descending rapidly and making good use of most of what you find. Very flexible. Very fun.

BTW, I always play with selling on now. Finding that "Battle Blessings" book is still nice when you can sell it for 20,000K. I know it will eventually translate to something good - a rogue has a lot of options.

You just have pick your battles well and know what is lurking near by.

When I fail with a rogue it is typically because I picked a bad fight and didn't abort when I should have. Even with an early rogue I still have a bit of "see it, go hit it" mentality at times - don't do that

[Selkie]

I mostly play rogues because I like their stealth and detection.

I never use stealing. It's often so much easier just to kill a monster. The times where it could be useful, a sleeping unique who I can't kill, I find it's not reliable enough and can just create more problems.

I really think the rogue class needs a backstab ability, to make stealth a much more valuable asset. It could double the damage dice or something. It makes sense that stabbing a sleeping monster is more deadly than meleeing a conscious monster who is fighting back.

[archolewa]

I've actually gotten a *lot* of mileage out of devices when playing rogues (they get the Recharge spell), and it makes for a very fun, quasi-mage style of play. Through most of the early and midgame, you can do some pretty nasty damage with the various elemental wands by targeting enemy weaknesses (or at least not-resistances). Dragon Breath wands especially are glorious. And then of course, once you start getting Drain Life and Annihilation, you really start slaughtering things, especially when you use your Phase Door spell to keep your distance. Add to that the Rogue's unparalleled stealth, and detection, and my Rogue victories were honestly some of my smoothest.

Both times I beat Morgoth with a Rogue I did it by hitting him with Wands of Annihilation until he died.

[Bogatyr]

How much use is the rogue's throwing (as opposed to shooting) ability? I know that daggers and spears do extra (a lot extra) damage when thrown, but with inventory pressure, I can't imagine keeping many throwables around? Is it only useful in the early game before a suitable launcher (bow/sling/crossbow) is found?

[Bogatyr]

What's a good starting kit for a rogue? I can win easily with mages and the other "pure" classes, but the hybrids like rogue and ranger are a mystery, I just die die die so fast with them.

[Pete Mack]

Narthanc, armor of elvenkind, and a longbow of power makes a good starting kit for a rogue.

[PowerDiver]

What's a good starting kit for a rogue? I can win easily with mages and the other "pure" classes, but the hybrids like rogue and ranger are a mystery, I just die die die so fast with them.

I am having fun playing a half-troll with initial stat points all in dex and str, starting stats Str: 18/30 and Dex: 17. You punch for 15 a round, so don't wield a melee weapon that does less. Treat it as a weaker warrior with better stealth.

You will have 50% failure rate with spells for a long time, but they are a cheap luxuries so just take the results when you get them as bonuses.

My starting kit was 2 !speed, 1 ?recall, and 1 ?phase. Assuming !speed not available, I'd invest in 20 to 40 shots [throw them until you find an enchanted sling] and 1 each of potions you like, to learn the flavors, and the rest spent on ?phase. If you are a worrywart, buy some food as well.

[Bogatyr]

Narthanc, armor of elvenkind, and a longbow of power makes a good starting kit for a rogue.

That would be great but the RNG has yet to give those to me . Finally got a HE rogue off the ground, it was really really slow, much slower than a mage (which I can do without even thinking about). No enchanted launchers for a LONG time, finally found a short bow of accuracy that can do at least some decent damage. Drained all my early attack wands on Smeagol. Did get a (+3, +13) main gauche, and a dagger of venom, which are the only reason I survived this far. I agree that object detection is great, cuts down on travel time to uninteresting areas. Hate that arrows break so much. A powerful sling and some nicely branded pebbles would be awesome, but so far haven't found that. Just hoarding all my empty wands for now hoping that the recharge spell will suffice to keep them active.