Ranking of devices

[mrfy]

Am I the only person who hates staffs/scrolls/spells of *destruction*? I feel like it.

I try my hardest not to use them.

[Grotug]

Am I the only person who hates staffs/scrolls/spells of *destruction*? I feel like it.

I sort of wish Angband was designed around TO not existing. I find the dynamic of --lots of super deadly stuff and so the solution is to TO-- gets kind of stale and cheesy after awhile. Sometimes I enjoy my games where I find _Destruction before -TO and have to be clever about luring out baddies and destructing them and then going back to the vault for loot. It's also annoying when you have a promising character that somehow never finds TO and then ultimately is sunk because of it (I play forced descent so scumming for TO isn't something I do--scumming in general is a playstyle I try to avoid).

This game is virtually impossible without TO. I think the game would be more interesting if there weren't any devices that were critical to success or forward progress and trivialized the danger. Sure, some would be more coveted than others, but none that make or break forward progress.

Self Teleport is sometimes critical but usually only for a certain period of the game (say DL20s to late DL40s) and carries risks and is more interesting overall. I'm okay with certain resistances and protections like free action, base resists, see invisible and poison being necessary, but I kind of wish the the game had less [aggro / super dangerous] enemies and no TO or TO that is super rare and not required to win (like as a rare activation on artifacts or something like that). And maybe Mages could exclusively keep it as a later game, powerful spell.

This is why the early game is still the most fun (though the end game I suppose is more interesting than it used to be with all the ridiculous uber-passwallers that now exist. I love playing Half Troll warrior because with decent gear I can tackle most every situation the game throws at me up until DL40 without TO and I have to take calculated risks and I have to be clever (and a little lucky) to survive tricky situations. It's more fun when very few things can one shot you but many things can still kill you quick. This way TO is not absolutely needed, the game is more exciting, and it's still plenty hard.

In general I agree, I don't like destruction because I can never be certain something worthwhile got destroyed--it's an "escape" that carries with it good caveats which makes it more interesting than TO.

So in its current state to compensate for TO's overpoweredness the game design has relied on sillily overpowered monsters that summon like crazy or breathe every horrible element known to @ which just makes @ avoid / TO those monsters completely which isn't all that interesting gameplay.

[Selkie]

@grotug Playing as a ridiculously weak rogue (think clvl 10-20) and power-diving for loot, reliant only on TO, is fun. It's tense and you're always on your toes. It's a thrill cracking a vault knowing you have to TO the Balrog of Moria before he wakes... and then some bastard terrified yeek goes snitching on you.

I agree with you though. It gets spammy later on, especially if you play connected stairs.

[Sphara]

Vanilla Angband today, is quite difficult, even with current TO-system. Teleport Other has fail rates. It's not foolproof.
Changes for *destruction*? Very few characters have enough supply to spam it.

Maybe vanilla isn't as hard as frogband. Sure. It isn't. But in current V, you are just forced NOT to explore some early vaults, without TO. The monsters dmg/turn is too much.

I understand your point, but the way the game is designed, nerfing TO would make it massively more difficult. So what do you suggest? Lower breath damage? Lesser OOD vaults? Save throw against breaths and mana attacks?

[ewert]

I don't use TO much in my plays. Definitely not as any sort of playstyle staple. Nor do I rely on being a janitor to vault floors, I like to kill stuff. Only the big M really makes me rely on TOs, as choosing your ground is very important, and that is if it is a ranged character, if I am melee I will farm for a vault with permanent walls to go toe to toe.

I don't see the major problem with my playstyle. So, maybe, it is more playstyle dependent. Killing uniques/mobs that drop stuff has been giving me majority of my good gear usually, not picking em up from vault floors.

Just my 2 cents, not specifically to anyone.

[Egavactip]

Devices for warriors can often be divided into early, middle, and late game options. There are few that are actually useful--but the majority of devices are not actually that useful for most characters.

In the early game, the following can be useful:

Wands:

1. Magic missile is useful up until the player can find some sort of ranged weapon/ammo. Sometimes you just need to kill that shrieker mushroom or other annoying distance creature.

2. Stinking cloud. I used to always carry a wand of stinking cloud, because multiplying creatures seemed more common in the early game. I don't know if their frequency has been decreased in modern versions but it seems that way, anyway. So I'll pick up a wand or two but if I need that slot, I don't have any problems throwing them away to make room.

3. Wand of Stunning/Wand of Slow Monster. These used to be useless, so far as I am concerned, because of their low rate of success. Now they are much more reliable, which makes them far more useful. I keep plenty of both around in the early and middle game; they make fighting early uniques far easier and save you tons of consumables. Rod of Slow Monster will later replace the Wand, while in the late game fewer creatures can be stunned, so I often stop carrying such wands. I'll note that wand of slow monster can be recharged by selling/rebuying, while wand of stunning needs to be recharged by spell/item.

4. Staff of Light. Crucial in the early game until you get a rod of illumination.

5. Staff of detect invisible. It's important for characters to have some means of detect invisibility and for most characters, this is usually the best consumable for it until you get an item with detect invisibility as an attribute.

6. Wand of stone to mud. This is a handy, through not crucial, thing to carry if you have no other digging options, because it may be the only thing that will get you into that rare but juicy early vault. Easily disposed of if you need the slot.

7. Staff of Detect Evil. I may pick one up and carry it as needed, but I have no problems with dropping it. In the early game, warriors need this sort of thing less than some other classes.

8. Rod of Detect Treasure. A key early game item.

9. Wands/Rods that deal some sort of damage. Sometimes one finds one of these out of depth. They can often be more useful than a really crappy missile weapon, but most are not worth the slot, either because they don't do that much damage or because it is so hard for a warrior to reliably use them without failure. Out of level wands like drain life and annihilate can certainly be useful if you are lucky enough to find one.

10. Staff of Teleportation. Teleportation is necessary for survival, so getting one or more of these asap is important. I always have some form of teleportation with me. Amulet is the last option, ring of teleportation the intermediate option, but staff of teleportation the key one. Having one or two of these to carry around, plus a spare two back home, is important for the early to mid games.

11. Wand of Teleport Other. You're not likely to find one in the early game but if you do, I wouldn't use it, because it's too valuable later. I'd store it, then pull it out of storage for the mid game and later.

12. Staff of mapping. These are useful--but also disposable, if need be--sources of intel until you get Rods of Mapping or light sources that map.

13. Staff of Cure Light Wounds. I may carry one around in the extreme early game if I have very little healing but this becomes obsolete pretty quickly.

14. Staff of curing. May be worth carrying around until you find a rod of curing but very disposable and you'll likely start ignoring it quickly.

15. Rod of curing. Quite useful in the early to mid game, especially if you have a shortage of consumables. Would be more useful if success rate were higher. I usually carry around three of these in the early to mid game. As the game progresses, you'll get protection for most of the things this rod helps with, such as blindness, poison, and confusion, so most players will eventually throw their rods away at some point in the mid or late game, depending on their gear. Some people don't use them at all but I find they are quite useful in the early and mid game.

16. Wand of wonder. Occasionally I'll keep one around in the early early game, because it can sometimes help kill Wormtongue, but that's about it.

Leaving aside out of level items (like a staff of healing), most of the other wands, staves and rods have little use. I ignore most of them very quickly.

Mid-Game staves/wands/rods for warriors

Many of the items mentioned above as being useful in the early game are still useful in the mid game, like Rod of Slow Monster. In addition...

Rod of Recall. Very convenient. Better protected than scrolls and you don't have to worry about keeping your inventory up. I always carry at least two (in case I accidentally hit recall and need to cancel it) and usually carry three unless weight is a real consideration.

Wand of Teleport Other. Teleport Other becomes increasingly important as the number of "you have no chance with this right now" creatures increases in the mid game and later. It is especially important for clearing vaults or other goodie places, because running away may help you survive but doesn't help you clear the vault and get the items. So Teleport Other not only helps you survive but helps you get more goodies and artifacts.

Rod of Teleport Other. This eventually replaces the wand of teleport other because it has unlimited uses and is more survivable (beware of electricity). Unless I have a shortage of Wands of Teleport Other, I usually store any RoTO until I get three or more of them. I like to have at least four to go into the final battles with and if I have 8-10 of them am likely to be carrying all of them around.

Rod of Mapping. Very useful in the mid and late games, esp. in multiples, though can be made obsolete by something like an Arkenstone.

Rod of Detection. You'll begin to find these late in the mid-game to early in the late game and they are very handy. They replace Rods of Treasure Detection, but they have a slower refresh rate than that rod, so having only one is a little impractical if you are short on slots. I may store the first RoD I find until i find a second, then use them to replace any RoTD. If I have a slot free, I'll have both a RoD and 2 RoTD in the inventory. Eventually, I usually carry around 5 or so RoD.



Late Game

Rod of Speed. Rod of Speed is best when you find it out of level in the early or mid game; it's awesome there. It's useful throughout, though it has a serious limitation in that warriors may take a number of turns to activate it successfully. In this sense, even though more vulnerable and with limited # of uses, a staff of speed can actually be more useful. Staves of speed are common enough in the end game that a rod of speed may just not be worth it. For the final battles, you wouldn't use this, you'd use potions.

Rod of Restoration. It can occasionally be handy but it is most useful when discovered out of level rather than in the late game. It's long refresh rate is a real drawback.

Rod of Healing. It has a significant drawback in its failure rate for warriors and another in its long refresh rate, but it is pretty useful to help warriors defeat late game uniques without having to use a ton of consumables. It is best when possessed in multiples; otherwise it often just occupies a slot and sits there.

Staff of Banishment. Extremely important for a warrior in the late game. Some vaults will just be really difficult to go through without banishment, and unless you are lucky enough to get an artifact with banishment, this is the only practical source (you'll want to save scrolls of banishment for the final two battles).

Staff of Healing. Sometimes can be handy but they are fairly fragile and also drainable. Having any healing, be it via staff or rod or other source, certainly makes it easier for a warrior to go after uniques while not using up a ton of consumables that would be more helpful in the final two battles.

Staff of Destruction. Also crucial for a late game warrior. Without this, you're going to have to spend a lot more time running away or avoiding areas.

Wands of Drain Life/Annihilation. If you have really crap missile damage, these might be a potential alternative, but most of the time you'd just want to close distance and melee instead. The problem here is especially their mechanical reliability for warriors. In the late game, warriors don't have the luxury of being able to spend several turns trying to successfully activate a wand. Rod of Drain Life is even worse in this regard. So I usually ignore.

To clarify, I almost always ignore these items: Staff of Earthquakes, Staff of confuse monsters, staff of slow monsters, staff of sleep monsters, staff of dispel evil, staff of power, staff of holiness, staff of starlight, staff of remove curse, staff of the magi, rod of probing, rod of fire/frost/lightning/acid bolts, rod of fire/cold /lightning/acid balls, rod of hold monster, rod of polymorph, rod of disable traps, rod of light, wand of lightning/frost/fire/acid bolts, wand of lightning/cold/fire/acid balls, wand of confuse monster, wand of hold monster, wand of scare monster, wand of light, wand of polymorph, wand of darkness, wand of disabled traps, wand of wonder, wand of dragon's flame/frost/breath.

[Pete Mack]

Wand of wonder is very dangerous for warriors of most races The effect you get is determined by a 1d(device skill) roll. Bad effects are assigned the lowest rolls.

[wobbly]

Wonder is pretty reasonable against uniques with a pack. All the bad stuff is bolts.

[wv_wxman]

Wands/Rods of Light can be considered if you have inventory space, especially early on to kill long hallways full of certain orcs quickly. Even if you can smash those o's pretty easily, being able to light up hallways can be useful, mainly before you get telepathy.

[mrfy]

Wands/Rods of Light can be considered if you have inventory space, especially early on to kill long hallways full of certain orcs quickly. Even if you can smash those o's pretty easily, being able to light up hallways can be useful, mainly before you get telepathy.

Not just orcs, but trolls also. A stack of rods of light can be very useful.

[Ed_47569]

Vanilla Angband today, is quite difficult, even with current TO-system. Teleport Other has fail rates. It's not foolproof.
Changes for *destruction*? Very few characters have enough supply to spam it.

Maybe vanilla isn't as hard as frogband. Sure. It isn't. But in current V, you are just forced NOT to explore some early vaults, without TO. The monsters dmg/turn is too much.

I understand your point, but the way the game is designed, nerfing TO would make it massively more difficult. So what do you suggest? Lower breath damage? Lesser OOD vaults? Save throw against breaths and mana attacks?

I tend to agree with this. A while back TO was also downgraded from being a beam spell to a bolt, which considerably reduced the "spamming" factor.