do something about greatswords?

[bagori nd]

I'd be mostly fine with this, though I'll point out this is a slight nerf to str 3 dwarfs with the battle-axe(average weight 4.5lbs) & makes momentum a near requirement for charging with a bastard sword. Chances are I still wouldn't use a greatsword unless its a slay I lack in a 1-hander/hand & half. It'd probably just nerf hand & a half weapons, & people will still ignore greatswords.

I think the "momentum as a near requirement" result is all to the good. Keep in mind that momentum does cost an ability slot; the fact that greatswords would let you take full advantage of your Str without it is a nontrivial advantage.

These strength ideas are neat but I think they're barking up the wrong tree. Even if the heavy weapons were attractive for damage reasons, the thing that makes 1H so good is the shield slot has really amazing stuff that can go in there.

Momentum makes it even worse because you're not even forced to make the hard tradeoff between hands and damage if you don't want to.

If you combine the strength idea with a change to momentum like the one I sketched in the other post, you'd help solve this problem too.

Maybe that other idea was too complicated, though. Maybe it'd be better if momentum were just capped at +2 effective Str at most. I think it needs to do that much because otherwise deathblades and 2 lb. longswords would suck. But there's no real need for it to do more.

If you lowered the average weight of bastard swords and greatswords by a pound apiece (to 3 lb. and 6 lb. respectively), that'd help a lot too.

Also, you know Sil better than me, but is the shield slot that big a deal? Outside of artefacts you get some protection or a resistance. In late game the resistance is important. But in mid game especially, marginal damage is huge in Sil because of enemy protection. The extra punch from a big two-handed weapon can double your damage output, sometimes more. That's usually worth the trade.

Of course, there's still taptap's idea of two-handed-only egos, and I'm all for more (and more common) 2h weapon artefacts. (One time someone mentioned making Narsil a light greatsword, for instance, since Elendil was so tall.)

[taptap]

Maybe that other idea was too complicated, though. Maybe it'd be better if momentum were just capped at +2 effective Str at most. I think it needs to do that much because otherwise deathblades and 2 lb. longswords would suck. But there's no real need for it to do more.

This is all the wrong direction, how is limiting momentum to help only light blades improve heavy ones? (Similar with ideas to reduce returns on weight.) And no, deathblades don't suck - try subtlety, critical hits with d11 hurt. (If you want to reduce momentum effect and help heavier weapons then do it the other way, you get e.g. additional strength bonus for each lb of weight above 3 lb.)

I am all for making two-handing a one-and-half-hand weapon a strength bonus and reintroduce weight requirements for some abilities, likely only knockback, by limiting the strength for the STR/CON contest to the effective strength bonus you get with your weapon (no knockback with a dagger). Both would help only the heavier weapons, but not too much as well.

[wobbly]

Another idea, if you put a 2hnder mastery at the same position in the tree as momentum that halved weight for criticals on true 2hnders that'd put a bastard sword with momentum & a greatsword with 2hnder mastery as around equal without a shield. Could be interesting with a mithril greatsword where it would match a 2lb longsword w/momentum except for -1 accuracy, no shield & an extra damage dice.

Edit: Just thinking about it a mithril longsword with momentum & subtlety would still be outclassing this, though it's an extra ability there.

[bagori nd]

This is all the wrong direction, how is limiting momentum to help only light blades improve heavy ones? (Similar with ideas to reduce returns on weight.) And no, deathblades don't suck - try subtlety, critical hits with d11 hurt. (If you want to reduce momentum effect and help heavier weapons then do it the other way, you get e.g. additional strength bonus for each lb of weight above 3 lb.)

Fair enough on deathblades. But the point doesn't extend to mithril longswords. These need to be potentially excellent weapons, if only for lore reasons. And they wouldn't be without momentum. (Fingolfin had more than 2 Str, and used it.)

Anyway, a 2-point cap on momentum wouldn't help only light blades. It would help heavy blades just as much, and about as much as it does now. Only in very special cases do characters normally apply more than 7 or so Str on a given attack: the proposed momentum would benefit a 3 Str raging elf charging with a 5 or 6 lb. sword to exactly the same extent. What it wouldn't do, in conjunction with the strength bonus change, is let that elf do as much damage with a 4 lb. bastard sword.

edit: and keep in mind that of the heavy weapons, only greatswords have issues. as far as I can tell axes and hammers are pretty much where they should be.

[Arseface]

You could make momentum double the effective weight of the weapon in regards to crits.

[taptap]

Anyway, a 2-point cap on momentum wouldn't help only light blades. It would help heavy blades just as much, and about as much as it does now. Only in very special cases do characters normally apply more than 7 or so Str on a given attack: the proposed momentum would benefit a 3 Str raging elf charging with a 5 or 6 lb. sword to exactly the same extent.

This is simply wrong and you know it. With the current momentum an effectively 7-strength char could happily use a 3.5 lb weapon in your setup you require a 5 lb weapon (and it was 7 lb before). While this is indeed pushing high strength chars to heavier weapons, it is a significant nerf of momentum (larger than the benefit of finesse) for strong chars while you keep the whole benefit of momentum for light weapons putting 2lb artefact shortswords, deathblades and light longswords in a particularly sweet spot. For an ability called momentum this is a bit counterintuitive to me. (Btw. momentum bonus = weight-3 would have the same effect on a 7-strength char, without the bonus for light weapons.)

[wobbly]

Random idea, not sure if I like it or not, just putting it out there. Remove 2 damage sides from 2-hnders, allow double the str bonus up to weight limits.
So 0 str - 3d3 too weak to really swing a 2hnder, certainly to weak for swinging a bastard sword 1 handed(3d1)
1 str - 3d5, or -1 damage side compared to current
2 str - 3d7, as is now, light bastard swords(3lb) nerfed to 3d6
3 str - 3d7 on 4lb bastard sword, 3d9 on 6 lb greatsword
4 str - Needs an overweight 2hnd - 8 lber

This would mean you'd need momentum to use more then 4 str on a 2hnder.
7 str/momentum - 3d17, a lot but compared to subtlety with a deathblade??

Edit: As a bouns this would make knockback much more effective with a 2 hander

[bagori nd]

This is simply wrong and you know it.

Maybe it's wrong, but if so I honestly don't know it. It's possible we just think Sil needs different things. Basically, I think:

(1) The weapons in Sil are, for the most part, very well-balanced and moreover balanced in a very elegant and intuitive way. The only exception is the greatsword, which is (unpalatably) worse in almost every respect than a bastard-sword used two-handed.
(2) For this reason, the greatsword should be given a bigger niche in a way that changes as little else as possible.
(3) This is best accomplished by making the greatsword more attractive for strong characters (only) than a bastard sword used two-handed, without otherwise altering the weapon balance.
(4) Changing the hand-and-a-half bonus to effective Str while also capping momentum would do this.

Done right, this would not nerf momentum for strong characters, since once a weapon gets heavy enough, it doesn't matter whether the effective Str limit is double its weight or its weight + 2 or so. (Maybe the right cap is +3 instead of +2.)

The strong elves I've won with generally end up with unbuffed Str scores of 5 or 6: 3 base, +1 from the ability, +1 or 2 from items. With the change I've suggested, momentum would give them up to 9 points of Str bonus with a 7 lb. greatsword (enough to take full advantage of their strength when buffed or charging, but not both*), 6 points with a 4 lb. bastard sword used one-handed (enough to take full advantage of their normal strength, but not enough to benefit from buffs or charges), and 4 points when using that sword two-handed (not enough to take full advantage of their strength at all). With a greataxe, or a giant artefact sword like Glend or Calris, the limit would go up to 13 points or more--as much as any Sil character needs.

Granted, if you disagree with (1), and think lighter swords are too good, then my proposal obviously doesn't cut it. But I don't yet see why lighter swords might be too good.

edit: oh, wait! Rereading your post I see what I might've missed: is your point that my momentum would nerf strong characters, since in cases where they were originally using 3.5 lb. bastard swords (without being OP) now they must use heavier greatswords (and so are at a comparative disadvantage)? If so: hmm, good point.



[*] This is a slight nerf, but keep in mind that the main use of Str potions is for long drawn-out brawls, when most of your attacks aren't charges.

[Infinitum]

Momentum strengthened medium weight weapons, now I don't get why you propose to shift balance towards even lighter weapons as a remedy to make heavier weapons completely unplayable. Instead of weighing critical hits against strength bonus e.g. in a bow as is, you would just take your ultralight fibre-glass bow every time regardless how strong you are. Strength equipment would never be left behind and no one would ever feel again the joy of playing a strong char with a war hammer (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=15180) or a 0-strength fencer... that would be a sad game.

Again, none of the ideas in this thread could be implemented in a vaccuum - no need to disregard them as such. There are a multitude of different damage formulas that would allow light weapons with criticals to do comparable damage to heavier ones with plenty of strength. No harm in discussing different options in this regard.

That said I'm not sure I like the current proposed changes to momentum for the simple reason that they would complicate the ability. Simplicity, conformity and transparency in how stuff is calculated is the prime reasons I keep coming back to Sil time and again. Likewise for changing how the strenght bonus is calculated for 2-handers; it would probably work as well as anything as far as game balance goes, but it gives up some of that sweet sweet streamlining in doing so.

Anyhow taptap; one way to address the points you raise should one (or half..) remove the Str/Weight relationship would be critical hits using unadjusted weapon damage. So for an instance, my aforementioned 4-Strength elf wielding a dagger would on a hit!!!! cause 1d9+4d5 damage rather than 5d9 damage. This would have a few interesting consequences across the board - of the top of my mind:

*It wouldn't change the current weapon-class balance - heavy weapons would still deal the bulk of their damage with their base dice, light weapons with criticals. Polearms would still cause comparatively "small" criticals rolling bigger dice.

*It would streamline the damage system some more - weight and effective strength is one of the more complicated concepts in Sil, and some of the finer points are not immediatly apparent to new players (like the fact that .5lb weapons are unaffected by negative strength).

*Stronger characters would always deal more damage than weaker ones, albeit strong characters wielding multiple-dice weapons would benefit more. Likewise, characters rocking negative strength would deal (slightly) less damage using very light weapons (eg 2x(1d2+!d5) damage for a 0-strength characters using rapid attack and a dagger). Minor point, but makes thematic sense (and having my stabbers disregard all strenght equipment on offer out of hand is a pet peeve of mine so there's that).

*More importantly, Strength would scale into the lategame without the need of abilities to feed it into. Momentum could be cut to leave design space for another tactical melee ability. Rapid Attack would be less of a nobrainer for the very strong.

*Damage output would be lower across the board, and would require the lategame in particular to be rebalanced to address this.

*Attempting to keep on-topic, Greatswords would deal 1d5 damage per level of critical hit as opposed to 1d3 for Bastard Swords. Granted, a difference of 1 point of damage (ish) per level of critical hit for weapons with base damage in the 3d10 region isn't a lot, but it would differentiate them somewhat should Greatswords be kept (I don't think they should, but I digress).

[taptap]

Yes, bagori that was my point. (Capped momentum) would weaken only strong characters by forcing them to heavier weapons - they may still have the same base damage with a heavier weapon but less critical hits, while you would retain the whole benefit of momentum for 2lb weapons. (Reduced momentum) would weaken momentum in general but retain most benefit at higher weapon weights. (2-handing bonus as strength bonus) would be a general nerf to 2-handed one-and-half handers, similar to (reduced momentum) when momentum is present, but potentially seriously - maybe too much - weakening early 2-handed one-and-half hand weapons. (2-handing bonus as strength bonus) as a very selective nerf should not be combined with any other reduction/cap to momentum imo.

Anyhow taptap; one way to address the points you raise should one (or half..) remove the Str/Weight relationship would be critical hits using unadjusted weapon damage.

This would single-handedly "streamline" the Sil-combat-system out of existence. Having different dice in the same damage roll isn't simplification. As a next step in "streamlining" one probably should display "average damage per turn" This proposal is Angbandification of Sil, seriously.

[bagori nd]

(2-handing bonus as strength bonus) as a very selective nerf should not be combined with any other reduction/cap to momentum imo.

Yeah, I'm convinced at this point.

[debo]

imo replacing 'momentum' with 'launch a rocket' would fix everything

[bagori nd]

imo replacing 'momentum' with 'launch a rocket' would fix everything

only because "launch a rocket" always fixes everything.

[wobbly]

'launch a rocket' would fix everything

Hmm, ever thought of going in to politics?

[taptap]

Do something w/o changing them.

An idea that hasn't been proposed, would not require changes to greatswords, yet would completely restore greatswords to their glory is unifying long- / bastardswords under one name (afaik the swords called longsword irl were in fact often used two-handed) and make them 2d5 when used single-handed, 2d7 when two-handed.

I just wanted to put this idea into the thread as well.