1.2 endgame feedback

[debo]

I'm putting this in a separate thread so that if anyone wants to avoid spoilers, they can.

MEGA SPOILERS AHEAD

This is in reference to this dude: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=15393

I could rant a lot here but I'm going to try for conciseness:

a) Lategame dungeon

This is harder now. The lack of consumables I found (sample size of 1), especially stat pots, means that you really don't want to screw with uniques. I had to use potions out of desperation exactly once the entire game against Delthaur, and I still only had 2 Con, 1 Str, 1 Dex by the throne room. (10 healing and 5 miruvor though, which is very good.)

I don't really know what I would have done if I hadn't found Saithnar vs. serpents. Song of sharpness with 15 effective song was barely noticeable against them, and now that consumables are rare I don't want to sit around for 50 turns waiting for sapphire serpents to pop my consumables.

I do like how this makes the lategame dungeon feel more dangerous, but I worry that since you can get here with such a potentially high turncount, this "demotivator" for trawling might force people to the throne room with a bitter taste in their mouth. Let's wait and see, this wasn't a big deal.

b) The throne room

THIS WAS SO AWESOME. Morgoth's ability to slow me down was probably the biggest tide-turner in this battle. I still managed to knock him down to 3 stars with careful consumable use, but I spent a lot of turns just trying to figure out what was going on. (I wasn't sure if him slowing me down basically turned off my !Quickness for good, or if my speed would come back when he stopped singing.)

I'm a bit confused by the messages that announce an enemy song has begun, because I know V only has 2 but I remember seeing more than a handful of messages (thralls, binding, locks, something else). Are these just multiple flavorful message options for the same songs?

I still think I could take him out using the buff-up-and-sing-slaying method if I had a bit more luck with consumables, knew what was coming, and had a sharpness weapon. The slowing-down-thing is going to make it really tough, though, unless you can prevent the slaying decay.

Once I got my sil and headed out, the locking song scared the bajeezus out of me. I wasn't sure if I could still bash through doors or not, but it all worked out.

c) The ascent

There will probably be multiple tweaks that can be made here, but I'm not sure because one thing stuck out like a sore thumb.

I would suggest that the slowing song is probably too strong for V to be singing during the ascent. The locks one was kinda neat (breaks your sprint), but the fact that he can basically stick me in mud whenever and however he wants is incredibly rage inducing.

I might suggest removing the slowing song entirely during the ascent. Alternately, if there were some way of (a) resisting the effect or (b) having it ding you one speed level (so that fast -> normal or normal -> slow) instead of just hard-setting you to slow, I might be able to live with that.

In the current state, I suspect the ascent takes everything I hated about it from 1.1.1 and makes it even worse.

Great stuff overall, I think if a few more people can get to the ascent (might even be worth hacking a save to get feedback faster) that part can probably be smoothed out pretty easily so that it's still challenging but also fun.

[debo]

Also, I forgot to mention -- In all the commotion, Gorthaur's song was really not noticeable at all. It was kind of sad, really, to have such a cool ability on such a cool unique get completely inundated by the chaos in the throne room. I'm guessing it will be more noticeable if you encounter him in the Chambers of Thu.

[debo]

Ok, so it looks like my lack of free action really hurt me here. Might be worth another run with it on to see how that plays. Ive never really been in the throne room without it. (That's what I get for asking for a saithnar Nerf!!)

[Scatha]

Alternately, if there were some way of (a) resisting the effect or (b) having it ding you one speed level (so that fast -> normal or normal -> slow) instead of just hard-setting you to slow, I might be able to live with that.

Both of these should already apply. I wonder if your comment later on Free Action means you've looked up the mechanics. In any case it certainly shouldn't be the case that Free Action is necessary to win; I think it was bordering on too strong even before 1.2.

[debo]

Yes, I looked it up. I had 17 will, and anytime V started singing, I started slowing down. I would probably not go into the throne room with another dude of this type without free action ever again, knowing what I know now.

[T-Mick]

Now we can have a song duel with Song of Freedom vs. Morgoth's door locking song. I heartily approve.

[debo]

Yes there are going to be some seriously epic throne room encounters now, I am pretty excited about it. I almost wish that I'd never played sil before so that 1.2 could be my first impression of the endgame.

[taptap]

Feels very different as an archer at least if you find a dragon horn longbow - Nan was so friendly to drop one for me. I spent the same time 0-500 as I spent 550-1000, so endgame did not necessarily feel harder (I was playing with focus, concentration, master hunter and in the end 20 perception and listen from helm of curufin). If you rarely use potions and have treasure staffs you will have a sufficient stash in the throne room anyway (10 strength, 5 dexterity, 3 constitution, 4 grace in my case). I was short only on healing for a while when I miscalculated Draugluins pack and a single serpent that was breathing on me at short distance (con 3) and didn't find any grace potions at all before 950 ft.

However, I badly messed up in the throne room Basically we both were singing and couldn't kill each other - with slowing, requaffing and all the idiot orcs standing in my way (they were fleeing, but frozen due to my mastery). Serpents didn't respond to Elbereth and distracted me for a moment before I started Mastery, then an unrelenting horror moved in front of Morgoth. I couldn't get sufficient distance to build concentration later on - Gothmog and 2 unrelenting horrors were additional annoyance - I even killed a few unrelenting horrors before to build up my master hunter bonus, but no. When I decided to run with a Sil and try again later, I rushed and hacked at the crown when he stood next to me... which is a really stupid and completely avoidable death. But I played through most of the endgame feeling pretty invincible and only once was in danger (from Draugluins pack), so that is the payback for my overconfidence.

Song of Mastery: Morgoth was basically immune. With 31 song I expect him to be slowed at least in my proximity from time to time. Couldn't note any such effect - maybe Mastery should produce a notification if it slows Morgoth similar to him slowing me. He however slowed me a lot - with 18 will and free action and from a few tiles away - are you sure free action helps against his song? So basically I wasted a lot of experience for an ability that didn't work out when I needed it and I never used it before during the game.

That fleeing but mastered opponents get opportunist attacks when you shoot next to them is probably a bug. (I believe I noticed it, but it is all a blur now.)

Song of Freedom: Provides (stackable) freedom of action as well. It looks really useful in the throne room now - but does it really work against Morgoths song?

Song of Staying: Another song that provides a will bonus - maybe a real option for melee now?

Song of Sharpness: Probably would have been better than Mastery with 31 song, but I thought up this build earlier when Sharpness was even stronger to play in a different way.

@debo:
Removing Morgoth's song on the ascent will make it too much of an option to just grab a Sil in the throne room and kill him later in easier environment

P.S. On a second thought: I should not have combined Elbereth with Stealth. They are actually working against each other. I could have taken Silence / Lorien instead of Elbereth and Mastery for better effect.

[debo]

He however slowed me a lot - with 18 will and free action and from a few tiles away - are you sure free action helps against his song?

Once the crown comes off, he has 25 will (which is also his song score) against your 28 effective will. If you're right next to him, it's your 28 vs his 25 (or 24, maybe he gets dinged one by the distance rule), which means it's going to work quite often.

I'm going to try the ascent a few more times before making any further real commentary, but while the slowing effect is fun in the throne room, I am pretty sure it's going to make me throw my keyboard against the wall on the way up.

Your point about taking the sil and then gunning him down at 950' is a good one for sure. Now that I know how the resistance rules work I should be able to figure out a strategy. I guess double free action is going to become the new ascent metagame for me

[evilmike]

Does song of silence have any effect on morgoth's singing? And if not, should it? It makes shouting monsters quiter, so I figure it would affect singing ones in some way too. I don't picture it making you immune to hostile song, just weakening the effects.

Probably song of freedom would be more useful in any case, if you're going to have a "song battle", since it closes up pits and gives free action. I just wonder if it would be cool for song of silence to be an option.

[taptap]

Once the crown comes off, he has 25 will (which is also his song score) against your 28 effective will. If you're right next to him, it's your 28 vs his 25 (or 24, maybe he gets dinged one by the distance rule), which means it's going to work quite often.

But shouldn't I master him significantly more than he slows me, with 31 song against his 25+5+distance? Maybe I did, but I never really felt this actively.

Free action didn't stack earlier, it does now... so I guess people will appreciate song of freedom and final rest weapons a little more.

Song of Silence does not weaken your own songs as well... they work subconsciously

[debo]

Enemies get +5 to defend against mastery. That means he's rolling 30 will + d10 against your 30ish if you're right in front of him. Also, mastery doesn't give a message when it works, so I guess you might miss it in cases that it does take effect.

Unfortunately Morgoth's songs don't suffer this -5 penalty, although there's a comment in the source that suggests this was at least considered

[Nick]

I'm going to try the ascent a few more times before making any further real commentary, but while the slowing effect is fun in the throne room, I am pretty sure it's going to make me throw my keyboard against the wall on the way up.

So win-win for the viewers then

[Scatha]

Does song of silence have any effect on morgoth's singing? And if not, should it? It makes shouting monsters quiter, so I figure it would affect singing ones in some way too. I don't picture it making you immune to hostile song, just weakening the effects.

Probably song of freedom would be more useful in any case, if you're going to have a "song battle", since it closes up pits and gives free action. I just wonder if it would be cool for song of silence to be an option.

It doesn't currently, but we've been considering this, in fact since before player Songs were in the game(!). If the balance works well, we'd like an effect like this.

[taptap]

Enemies get +5 to defend against mastery. That means he's rolling 30 will + d10 against your 30ish if you're right in front of him. Also, mastery doesn't give a message when it works, so I guess you might miss it in cases that it does take effect.

Unfortunately Morgoth's songs don't suffer this -5 penalty, although there's a comment in the source that suggests this was at least considered

Yes, his song is easier albeit a bit weaker - Mastery does more than slow you - unless it destroys the effect of quickness then it is stronger because it is a permanent ? effect?