1.2 endgame feedback

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  • evilmike
    Scout
    • Aug 2013
    • 33

    #16
    Originally posted by Scatha
    It doesn't currently, but we've been considering this, in fact since before player Songs were in the game(!). If the balance works well, we'd like an effect like this.
    As I understand it, song of silence lowers enemy perception by 1/2 of your song skill. So maybe it could lower the enemy's effective song skill by this amount, as well as their perception? That would make it pretty strong, but I don't think it would be enough to completely shut him down, unless you have a massive amount of song. And if you did, you'd probably have more useful options than silence anyways.

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    • debo
      Veteran
      • Oct 2011
      • 2402

      #17
      Originally posted by taptap
      Yes, his song is easier albeit a bit weaker - Mastery does more than slow you - unless it destroys the effect of quickness then it is stronger because it is a permanent ? effect?
      No, from what I understand V's song just gives you a speed penalty of -1 to your current speed as long as he is singing. You should speed up when he ends his song.
      Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'

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      • taptap
        Knight
        • Jan 2013
        • 710

        #18
        Originally posted by debo
        No, from what I understand V's song just gives you a speed penalty of -1 to your current speed as long as he is singing. You should speed up when he ends his song.
        "As long as he is singing" - that is I roll once but lose speed quasi permanently? Or I do roll every turn and only am affected when I fail (that is how player songs work)?

        @evilmike: If silence affects Morgoth songs it should affect player songs for symmetry as well.

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        • debo
          Veteran
          • Oct 2011
          • 2402

          #19
          Originally posted by taptap
          "As long as he is singing" - that is I roll once but lose speed quasi permanently? Or I do roll every turn and only am affected when I fail (that is how player songs work)?
          It's not really either of those. Each round, if you fail your check against binding, your "slowed counter" is set to the maximum of 2 or your previous slow counter. So, failing the binding check will always mean you are going to be slow for at least 2 more rounds.

          I guess it was done this way so that you don't get your speed status flickering spastically each turn in the event that you alternately make and fail saves.

          I guess it's also possible that effect decay is applied at the beginning of the next player turn, so perhaps this has a net effect of bumping the slow counter only by 1 (i.e. until the next round). Not sure.
          Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'

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          • half
            Knight
            • Jan 2009
            • 910

            #20
            Originally posted by debo
            I guess it's also possible that effect decay is applied at the beginning of the next player turn, so perhaps this has a net effect of bumping the slow counter only by 1 (i.e. until the next round). Not sure.
            This is correct. If you fail your roll, you will see your speed be one lower on the status line before you do your next two actions, but only the first of them is actually slower as the timer will run out before the second one. (This isn't specially coded, it is just how timers work in Angband and variants).

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            • half
              Knight
              • Jan 2009
              • 910

              #21
              Originally posted by evilmike
              As I understand it, song of silence lowers enemy perception by 1/2 of your song skill. So maybe it could lower the enemy's effective song skill by this amount, as well as their perception? That would make it pretty strong, but I don't think it would be enough to completely shut him down, unless you have a massive amount of song. And if you did, you'd probably have more useful options than silence anyways.
              One thing to consider is that there are two other counter-songs you can sing already: Staying and Freedom. We don't really need a third. It would make flavourful sense, though as has been pointed out it might also seem inconsistent with not hindering your other song if it is woven with it. A lot of people sing Lorien woven with Silence.

              Comment

              • evilmike
                Scout
                • Aug 2013
                • 33

                #22
                My thought about silence is just that it is a bit counter-intuitive for it to have no effect. Consider that the effectiveness of songs decreases with distance. My interpretation is this is because the song is loudest/clearest (and hence, most powerful) at its point of origin. It would make sense of song of silence made other songs quieter, and therefore less powerful.

                With regards to it affecting your own songs with woven themes, I would be fine with it having no detrimental effect here. You're not singing two songs at once, you're singing one song with two effects at once. Song of silence by itself doesn't make itself less effective (I know how weird that would be), so why would a song of "silence+lorien" make itself less effective? Or to put it another way, why would this song weaken the lorien part, but not the silence part?

                Therefore I think it can be justified if song of silence affects enemy songs, but not your own. You're clever enough not to hinder yourself with your own songs. Otherwise you'd probably fall asleep yourself if you tried to sing lorien...

                Anyway, the gameplay itself doesn't demand a 3rd song you can counter morgoth with. I just think that song of silence having no effect here is weird given what it's supposed to do.

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                • debo
                  Veteran
                  • Oct 2011
                  • 2402

                  #23
                  Originally posted by taptap
                  Yes, his song is easier albeit a bit weaker - Mastery does more than slow you - unless it destroys the effect of quickness then it is stronger because it is a permanent ? effect?
                  This is sort of unrelated, but it's also worth noting that singing song of freedom acts as if you have one source of free action regardless of how high your song is. If you have 0 song or 100 song it doesn't matter, it will give you +10 bonus to free-action type checks no matter what. The score does come into play re: the difficulty of opening doors, clearing rubble, etc.

                  Edit: The reason why I say this is interesting is because singing it as a minor theme seems really good if all you're trying to do is stay unslowed. (Unless this gets instanerfed
                  Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'

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                  • half
                    Knight
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 910

                    #24
                    Originally posted by evilmike
                    Therefore I think it can be justified if song of silence affects enemy songs, but not your own. You're clever enough not to hinder yourself with your own songs. Otherwise you'd probably fall asleep yourself if you tried to sing lorien...
                    Good point!

                    Comment

                    • half
                      Knight
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 910

                      #25
                      Originally posted by taptap
                      That fleeing but mastered opponents get opportunist attacks when you shoot next to them is probably a bug. (I believe I noticed it, but it is all a blur now.)
                      I can confirm that this is a bug that is fixed for 1.2.1. Monsters that are 'Mastered' and those that are fleeing and those that are missing a turn from Knock Back or waking up can no longer get any kind of free attack on the player.

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