All about chasms (1.2)

[half]

I was already thinking along the lines that Debo put forth... everyone can leap, but leaping lets you do so from standing position.

I'm not as keen on this option as on removing the pre-req. One of the interesting and thematic (and roguelike) things about leaping is the run-up rule, so I would be reluctant to have a version without that. I'd be more likely to just scrap Leaping at that point. So I see it more as a question of price. Currently you need two Abilities (though you might be able to get extra use out of Dodging if you get Flanking or Sprinting). If it had no pre-req, it would just require one Ability. If everyone could leap, it would require zero. I'd test out one before moving to zero. I still think that it might currently be a very good deal even with the pre-req cost, kind of like archery before people realised how powerful it really was. But I could easily be wrong about that.

[BlueFish]

You can use them for much more than just as an escape.

With leaping only, or even without it?

[BlueFish]

I'm not as keen on this option as on removing the pre-req. One of the interesting and thematic (and roguelike) things about leaping is the run-up rule, so I would be reluctant to have a version without that. I'd be more likely to just scrap Leaping at that point. So I see it more as a question of price. Currently you need two Abilities (though you might be able to get extra use out of Dodging if you get Flanking or Sprinting). If it had no pre-req, it would just require one Ability. If everyone could leap, it would require zero. I'd test out one before moving to zero. I still think that it might currently be a very good deal even with the pre-req cost, kind of like archery before people realised how powerful it really was. But I could easily be wrong about that.

I'm not interested in an overly powerful ability, especially if it means feeling like I'm gaming the system. (Maybe you're thinking of things like leading monsters down a corridor which is interrupted by a chasm, leaping over it, and then killing the trailing monsters from a distance, etc.) If stuff like that were baked into the game and didn't require an ability, that'd be fine with me. But penalizing people for not taking an ability by introducing annoyances into the game for them, doesn't seem to me like a good direction to go.

[Infinitum]

Afaik Sil design very consciously "looks bland, plays well", thus the plethora of things without gameplay effects removed from NPPAngband. If chasms don't cut you off, they boil down to dungeon beautification.

Well, yes. I like pretty things. I think the dungeon should look nice. Purty surroundings improve my game experience. Chasms as implemented right now doesn't, since the xp expediture in crossing them doesn't justify what items I might get for doing it (artifact generation algorithm be damned). This is exacerbated by the fact that leaping grants access to more content the earlier it is taken and xp being more precious in the early game. It is sort of an escape mechanism as well, but an unreliable one at best since chasms that actually cuts off all pursuing monsters are pretty rare, end there is no guarantee that the far side will be safe.

Not that Sil looks bad, mind you. I like the intentionally muted color palette in particular (I could do without the bright greens in the character screens and gore red smithing interphase, but yeah it's overall classy). The dungeon layout itself does tend to be a rather predictable pattern of corridors and templated room layouts however (especially in the earlier levels). More varied terrain types, open layouts and terrain features would really go a long way in recitifying that I think. Brogue's algorithm and general (if garish) looks are fantastic in this regard, hence why I constantly bring it up when discussing dungeon layouts.

@half: People taking leaping as a prerequisite to get sprinting still doesn't solve the problem that it isn't really good enough in itself is what I'm getting at. It would also somewhat nerf Flanking builds (since those typically want sprinting as well) which isn't really warranted imo.
As for narrow chasms vs wide chasms/pits, yeah. Account it to personal taste (and sense of scale maybe?). Wider terrain features as opposed to single-tile ones do look more organic to me however, if only because there's easier to create non-symmetrica patterns.

[half]

With leaping only, or even without it?

There is definitely more with Leaping, but quite a lot of interactions you and the enemies can create without it, both positive and negative. I think all of them flow very naturally from the chasm rules. I.e. it is not NetHack like interactions, but ways of being clever to use them to your advantage.

[debo]

I think the real issue is that Leaping is pretty situational, whereas the other evasion abilities are basically useful all the time, once you've committed to a certain build. This is why I thought of toying w/ removing the prereq, exactly so people would try it more and maybe realize it's better than they thought.

Either that, or make boots of leaping super common

[BlueFish]

There is definitely more with Leaping, but quite a lot of interactions you and the enemies can create without it, both positive and negative. I think all of them flow very naturally from the chasm rules. I.e. it is not NetHack like interactions, but ways of being clever to use them to your advantage.

I would be curious to know what those interactions are, if they haven't yet been mentioned here. I know there are various ways of knocking monsters into chasms but none seem compelling to me from a cost/benefit.

[Philip]

If you have the space in your pack, the horn that does it is worthwhile.

[absolutego]

the boots should be more common yeah, it's weird how the best ego (free action) seems to be the most common one.

and again yeah, what are those interactions? are we talking about "secret" things? i never take leaping because it seems marginally useful at best, and if it does more than advertised it should really be spelt out (in my opinion).

anyway what i wanted to say is that as i never take it, it wasn't until i played a comp game for kicks that i realised that leaping takes two turns, which i don't understand. i was shafted (leaping into a square that was unoccupied when i jumped but occupied when i landed) twice over a few minutes. it was so dangerous that i turned it off, because leaping into a known square doesn't prompt you, and i doubt i'll take it again in its current form (unless i need it for loot or something like that).

[BlueFish]

If you have the space in your pack, the horn that does it is worthwhile.

I never have space in my pack past 450' or so.

[locus]

I never get Leaping, but I might get it and enjoy playing with it if it were a pre-req for a less horribly-situational ability, like Sprinting. Or, uh, Heavy Armor Use, though that makes less than no sense from a flavor perspective.

[wobbly]

I've been generally enjoying the addition of chasm & find it interesting the complaints in regards to smithing. With the exception of artisan smiths & weaponsmiths below 3 str, smiths can build items to go round.

A mattock of belegost, boots of leaping or a horn of blasting will all get you past a chasm. I find my smiths are more likely to lose a forge to false floor traps or hostile monsters then a chasm.

[half]

A mattock of belegost, boots of leaping or a horn of blasting will all get you past a chasm. I find my smiths are more likely to lose a forge to false floor traps or hostile monsters then a chasm.

So weaponsmiths, armoursmiths, and jewellers can all get around chasms. That is very cute.

[debo]

The weaponsmiths can -- as long as they have 3 strength

[debo]

Also the diggy methods of avoiding chasms can still be defeated if the layout is bad enough, I think.