Sil 1.2

[taptap]

Starting as archer to become melee fighter later seems weird. Opposite way is far more convenient. Everything below is about dedicated archers:

7 evasion as in sprinting requirement is usually how far I go - but not too early. It is, however, perfectly possible to go without evasion and keep things at bay w/ fear or stealth or frozen in amazement w/ song of mastery or crippled by your shots. On the opposite end you can beef up on evasion and/or armour and play as Legolas (at point blank range), currently you can even play in a particularly retarded way by provoking additional attacks at point blank range when you have seriously high evasion and riposte.

Bows of Radiance were designed for scared elves in corridors. A lot of light and/or keen senses + listen help as well. Corridors also line up opponents for piercing shots and horn effects nicely.

Fear depends on timing, if you are already half dead and trapped you used them too late.

My most brilliant (light-wise), noisy archer: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=14886.

[huiren]

Thanks for the advice. I tried pushing archery over melee at first because I found it quite helpful taking archery to 3 early on my melee characters, so I decided to go a step further and just focus entirely on archery in the beginning. Archery seems a lot better than melee when I'm fighting on my terms, but I usually just end up dead if I can't do so. I guess that's the reason it goes so well with stealth. I've also tried increasing them almost simultaneously, or pushing melee to 10 first. Honestly, they all feel pretty viable to me, I just still end up doing something stupid and dying. My favorite death so far was walking into a corridor and finding a room with a shadow mold in it. I fired a bunch of shots into the room, but wasn't paying very careful attention to the game messages. I noticed it was taking an awful long time to kill, then saw the message "you hear a grunt". Somehow, I didn't think that was a terribly serious problem and just stood there and kept shooting. Boldog and about 10 orc warriors jumped out of the room and murdered me instantly.

I'll try rushing for listen. About what point would it be safe to go for it? The way I feel about stealth in the early game is that I often die because I don't have any stealth, but then when I take stealth, I die because I'm not strong enough to kill the enemies who end up noticing me. I've avoided trying for listen too early for similar reasons.

[taptap]

The way I feel about stealth in the early game is that I often die because I don't have any stealth, but then when I take stealth, I die because I'm not strong enough to kill the enemies who end up noticing me. I've avoided trying for listen too early for similar reasons.

This seems to work as intended.

Molds: I just bypass them. If you have to take one down a longbow (and a little strength) makes all the difference w/ a shortbow you can waste all your ammo on a single mold at times.

[huiren]

I typically ignore all molds, but I simply cannot abide shadow molds. I still usually ignore them, but it requires an effort of will to not kill every one I see. Occasionally, killing them is profitable. There is a forge vault, for instance, that has several shadow molds sitting around the forge.

[wobbly]

What are the odds of the same level generating? I'm looking at the exact same 100' level I saw last character. Same layout, white worms in same place, same stack of poison arrows.

[Derakon]

Functionally nil, unless you're savescumming and did the exact same sequence of events prior to generating the 100' level.

[wobbly]

Completely different character. Definitely identical level.

Edit: Pretty sure I got the vault bug message if that makes any difference.

[wobbly]

1. Make the 100' forge guards weaker. Some characters have a really hard time handling three white wolves or an out-of-control green worm pack, for example. A strong group of guards can kill even a Noldor with some builds, and I'm sure it's worse for the challenge races. Maybe you're supposed to adapt to this and skip the forge, but that can ruin some characters in a way that goes beyond typical roguelike luck. If an archer can't grab an early longbow because it's too dangerous he'll probably find another bow soon, but who knows when a smith will get another forge? A slightly weaker mix of enemies would be good. Like maybe a white wolf and some brown wolves instead of three white wolves.

So as a constant player of smiths & some one who has been bashing their head a couple of times against the guardian problem I think I may of found an answer. My attempt to thwart it today was ruined (by lack of white wolves). Here's the basic question: Do you actually have to fight the white wolves? If someone has managed the 1st forge as a pacifist I'd love to know. The basic idea consists of:

clear rest of level
peak in to forge using stealth mode
draw wolves out using noise (song or bashing doors)
contain or isolate/kill wolves using doors

Here is my failure/success. My basic feeling is if this character can manage the forge at 100' under optimal conditions, any sane build should manage to reliably do the forge:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=16932

[debo]

So as a constant player of smiths & some one who has been bashing their head a couple of times against the guardian problem I think I may of found an answer. My attempt to thwart it today was ruined (by lack of white wolves). Here's the basic question: Do you actually have to fight the white wolves? If someone has managed the 1st forge as a pacifist I'd love to know. The basic idea consists of:

clear rest of level
peak in to forge using stealth mode
draw wolves out using noise (song or bashing doors)
contain or isolate/kill wolves using doors

Here is my failure/success. My basic feeling is if this character can manage the forge at 100' under optimal conditions, any sane build should manage to reliably do the forge:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=16932

I've done this before but it's unbelievably annoying, especially if any orcs come up stairs or whatever -- the wolf howls will attract them, and then they'll open the door while you're forging.

[wobbly]

Yeah I knew it be annoying and fiddly. Still if a doriath can reach 13 jeweller by just silence/elbereth and dodge it may be an interesting attempt at a doriath artifact smith. I'll give it a go. Not sure silence & doors will be enough to vanish from the wolves. Probably as stupid as most of my ideas.

[taptap]

Yeah I knew it be annoying and fiddly. Still if a doriath can reach 13 jeweller by just silence/elbereth and dodge it may be an interesting attempt at a doriath artifact smith. I'll give it a go. Not sure silence & doors will be enough to vanish from the wolves. Probably as stupid as most of my ideas.

So glad I don't bother with hardcore smithing anymore.

[Nivim]

I like my hardcore smithing strategy; do it once decently, do it once really well, then never do it again.

[wobbly]

So glad I don't bother with hardcore smithing anymore.

Tell me about it.

Anyway the above setup worked, sort of. I actually killed the 1st 2 white wolves - opened the door took a step & 1 was already awake. I didn't reach 13 smithing till after 2 items(horn of thunder, ring of protection) so could only manage a single ring of +2 accuracy. That said it worked in principle, I was able to vanish from the white wolf with song of silence & when I finished smithing & came back to him to shot him with the bow, he was siting there unwary.

Despite all this I actually agree with what kzer_za & locus were saying (page 29 for me). For 3 reasons:

1. The feanor is meant to be the beginner race & I could see a beginner struggling to do an artistry start - particularly with the worst possible forge: 3 or 4 white wolves + a staircase + an orc pack + a crebin or mold or worm mass + a blindness or confusion trap. (I'm not exaggerating, I've seen this sort of thing generated)

2. Balance wise your coming out behind not ahead doing an extreme smithing start

3. It's not actually stopping you dumping all your pts in smithing, it wouldn't surprise me if you can take 1 pt in song, take elbereth & do the forge with a doritath with enough care.

Edit: of course that would ruin the puzzle side of breaking the 1st forge as hard as you can.....

Edit 2: To me crebains are more an issue then white wolves. They're a little more luck dependent. A crebain is a non-issue if you find armour. At low melee/evasion/naked they're harder then white wolves.

[Infinitum]

Yeah, smithing encourages a lot of sketchy decisionmaking allright.

My current smithing start is Feanor 2345,4300070 with Weaponsmith + Jewelry smithing a 2lb Bastard Sword and +2 Accuracy Rings in the vain hope of taking Artifice and smithing a +3 Hammer of armorsmithing (with danger) at the next forge. Usually dies horribly halfway to Song of Mastery but hey, saving xp on skipping enchantment amirite?

[wobbly]

A quick question about stealth. Does a secret door count as a door or a wall for stealth? - To clarify: If I need to find a secret door to find the stairs, does making noise to attract enemies on the other side work?

Edit: A slight annoyance with stealth. "The wolf stirs". There are 2 wolves & I'd like to kill the 1 that's "waking" (I'm assuming it's more alert rather than it's just failing a check to become alert). Which wolf is stirring?

Edit 2: When easterling archers changed to long bows was there monster memory not changed? I'm looking at longbow (+8, 1d7), I've also seen this on the unique cat archer