Sil: What are your least liked features of Sil?

[BlueFish]

Losing Orcrist to a thief is unfortunate. Because you had the chance to find it early when it really helps and lost it when it already was close. It also can happen that a thief just steals an artefact you already had and manages to escape. But this is a memorable event and part of the richness of the game (minor, memorable setback). You may even have prevented his escape with a staff of imprisonment (otherwise admittedly hardly useful) or a better ranged option.

Is it possible for thieves to steal artifacts from your inventory? That's never happened to me, but I often am carrying at least one around.

As it happens, the situation was a sufficient downer that I lost some small amount of motivation to keep that character alive, and I made some subtle mistake that Sil players will tend to make when in that mindset, and that character died soon after.

That artefacts are only generated once is imo the main mechanism against stair abuse and 900ft. scumming. Stairs used to take a 100 turns, since they don't anymore it is often a good idea for weakish Edains e.g. to go up and instantly down again (you can't do it several times in a row, but one up and down usually doesn't leads to broken stairs) once you face a too difficult obstacle. However, you have at least to worry about both the initial floor you left and the floor you barely touched containing unique treasures you might have missed. This mechanism also limits the usefulness of the "dive to 900 ft. and repeat 900 / 950 ft. several times" because you won't find artefacts that were generated before. Some tend to be dropped earlier (if it all) and thus are hardly found in the very deep dungeons. As far as I remember (well I can fool myself here), I never found the robe of Aredhel (+3 evasion robe + freedom of movement, which is amazing for certain builds) past 600 ft

It would never occur to me to consider it abuse to explore 900/950' within the time limit, with or without "preserve". I doubt turning preserve off would make such "scumming" appreciably more beneficial. When I've done it, it's been for consumables.

[BlueFish]

The artefact rule is flavour-driven. Unlike regular items, there's only supposed to be one in the world (so at most one in Angband), so it would be very odd to run across it in two different parts of the dungeon. We do the same with the unique vaults (and Orodruth) -- they can only be generated once per game.

It makes slightly more sense to allow artefacts to be re-generated than vaults, since theoretically they could have been carried over, but that would still be very strange. Preserve mode doesn't really make flavour sense. It makes some gameplay sense in Vanilla, since you have the opportunity to spend an arbitrary amount of time scumming for a particular artifact (and generally Vanilla doesn't have permanent setbacks to your character short of death). Sil does have permanent setbacks -- the main one is the turn clock -- so there's no reason to distort the flavour in order not to have a very minor one possible with artefacts.

Other than the turn clock, I don't see how Sil has permanent setbacks more than vanilla with Preserve off. I guess armor degradation from acid is more permanent in Sil, since there are no enchant armor scrolls, but that seems a small thing.

I don't think re-generating an artifact that had never been seen disrupts the narrative (or flavor, if you prefer) of the game in any way. The situation that caused my original frustration presents a clear way in which the same artifact could show up in two different places - a monster picked it up and carried it there, before meeting an unfortunate end in the jaws of its new owner. Not only is the narrative plausible, the player can actually watch it happen in front of them.

[taptap]

Losing Orcrist to a thief is unfortunate. Because you had the chance to find it early when it really helps and lost it when it already was close. It also can happen that a thief just steals an artefact you already had and manages to escape. But this is a memorable event and part of the richness of the game (minor, memorable setback). You may even have prevented his escape with a staff of imprisonment (otherwise admittedly hardly useful) or a better ranged option.

That artefacts are only generated once is imo the main mechanism against stair abuse and 900ft. scumming. Stairs used to take a 100 turns, since they don't anymore it is often a good idea for weakish Edains e.g. to go up and instantly down again (you can't do it several times in a row, but one up and down usually doesn't leads to broken stairs) once you face a too difficult obstacle. However, you have at least to worry about both the initial floor you left and the floor you barely touched containing unique treasures you might have missed. This mechanism also limits the usefulness of the "dive to 900 ft. and repeat 900 / 950 ft. several times" because you won't find artefacts that were generated before. Some tend to be dropped earlier (if it all) and thus are hardly found in the very deep dungeons. As far as I remember (well I can fool myself here), I never found the robe of Aredhel (+3 evasion robe + freedom of movement, which is amazing for certain builds) past 600 ft.

[Patashu]

That's your argument? That your character can be harmed in many ways and thus any way in which harm is done is appropriate?

Yes. The convention in Sil is that pseudo-permanent harm is OK, as I have demonstrated. Preserve being off and artifacts being scurryable off of a level follows this convention. Since this game is not an RPG where you want 'that perfect save file', no artifact is necessary to beat the game or even guaranteed to generate, your character will never be perfect and have many setbacks and missed opportunities and blown resources over the course of their lives, etc. there is no reason why artifacts need to have special protection to the contrary. As opposed to, say, Angband, where you are encouraged to play for as long as you like, generate as many artifacts as you like, etc. and preserve being off is a large blow as the balance of the game assumes you find all the artifacts you want, and missing a key one offsets you against that balance.

[Scatha]

The artefact rule is flavour-driven. Unlike regular items, there's only supposed to be one in the world (so at most one in Angband), so it would be very odd to run across it in two different parts of the dungeon. We do the same with the unique vaults (and Orodruth) -- they can only be generated once per game.

It makes slightly more sense to allow artefacts to be re-generated than vaults, since theoretically they could have been carried over, but that would still be very strange. Preserve mode doesn't really make flavour sense. It makes some gameplay sense in Vanilla, since you have the opportunity to spend an arbitrary amount of time scumming for a particular artifact (and generally Vanilla doesn't have permanent setbacks to your character short of death). Sil does have permanent setbacks -- the main one is the turn clock -- so there's no reason to distort the flavour in order not to have a very minor one possible with artefacts.

[Psi]

Missing an artefact *is* more painful than it not being generated. With every artefact generated in Sil, the probability of finding another one decreases. Therefore if you miss one, you are doubly unfortunate.

That said I like the way things are and I've never found myself short of equipment. At the end of the day (with a few notable exceptions) there is not a huge gap between artefacts and {special}.

[BlueFish]

What is the difference between a lost artifact and an artifact that did not spawn in the time limit Sil gives you? In either case, you don't get to use it. Sil with its 'anti-scumming' principles is balanced so that if you don't get the items and equipment you wanted you can still win.

It hurts to lose an artifact, but so does
-Using your last Orcish Liquor
-Running into a stat drainer
-Running into an acid attack
-Walking into a false floor, or into a web and getting surrounded by shadow spiders
-Really wanting an artifact for your god build and not getting it
-etc

That's your argument? That your character can be harmed in many ways and thus any way in which harm is done is appropriate?

You seem to be trying really hard to nitpick my opinion. I'm sorry if I've upset you in the past.

[Patashu]

Yes it's like "preserve = off" in vanilla, and yes I agree it's categorically the same. I don't like "preserve = off" being a permanent fixture of Sil, either. Exploring the whole level is strongly discouraged by the turncount limit and every game probably has more than a handful of lost artifacts. I'm not sure why that's a good thing from a game design standpoint.

What is the difference between a lost artifact and an artifact that did not spawn in the time limit Sil gives you? In either case, you don't get to use it. Sil with its 'anti-scumming' principles is balanced so that if you don't get the items and equipment you wanted you can still win.

It hurts to lose an artifact, but so does
-Using your last Orcish Liquor
-Running into a stat drainer
-Running into an acid attack
-Walking into a false floor, or into a web and getting surrounded by shadow spiders
-Really wanting an artifact for your god build and not getting it
-etc

[BlueFish]

Doesn't Sil also remove an artifact permanently if it was generated and you didn't pick it up? It seems categorically the same idea.

Yes it's like "preserve = off" in vanilla, and yes I agree it's categorically the same. I don't like "preserve = off" being a permanent fixture of Sil, either. Exploring the whole level is strongly discouraged by the turncount limit and every game probably has more than a handful of lost artifacts. I'm not sure why that's a good thing from a game design standpoint.

[Patashu]

As I understand it, this means that artifact will never be generated again. So not only can monsters pick up artifacts (unlike vanilla), they can leave the level and remove them permanently from the game. I don't like that at all.

Doesn't Sil also remove an artifact permanently if it was generated and you didn't pick it up? It seems categorically the same idea.

[BlueFish]

Just lost a +2, 2d5 [+2] long sword (orcrist or glamdring) to an orc thief picking it up and leaving the level.

As I understand it, this means that artifact will never be generated again. So not only can monsters pick up artifacts (unlike vanilla), they can leave the level and remove them permanently from the game. I don't like that at all.

[taptap]

It would be nice if Jewelled Crowns were functionally different in some way than Crowns, within the Smithing menu. Right now the choice between Crown and Jewelled Crown seems a false one in that Jewelled Crowns just increase smithing cost for no potential benefit. But the fact that there is no potential benefit has to be painstakingly discovered by the player.

The main difference is that a special unidentified jewelled crown might be the crown of Feanor, which as a smith you wouldn't want to miss

[BlueFish]

It would be nice if Jewelled Crowns were functionally different in some way than Crowns, within the Smithing menu. Right now the choice between Crown and Jewelled Crown seems a false one in that Jewelled Crowns just increase smithing cost for no potential benefit. But the fact that there is no potential benefit has to be painstakingly discovered by the player.

[HallucinationMushroom]

Speaking of possible bugs:

I've noticed that sometimes when I go to use an un-id staff, I will see the trap symbol pop up in random places on the screen in rooms where I've been. The staff doesn't auto-id, but it's gotta be entrapment. I guess the traps shouldn't show up on screen.

When I see monsters like wolves and spiders fleeing, they sometimes flee toward staircases and sort of hover around them. I don't know if this is a bug, but it just seems odd. Maybe they should either use the stairs or ignore the stairs. These are mainly the very early level wolves/spiders. I forget the flavors off hand.

Anyway, I've noticed these a long time and have just forgotten to mention them.

[Scatha]

MarvinPA: Yes, that would be a bug!