Sil: What are your least liked features of Sil?

[half]

But we should keep in mind that according to Scatha there's really only one reason for Preserve mode being off: realism regarding flavor. All the rest of this stuff we're talking about is rationalizations of a behavior that was never rationalized in that way by the creators.

Actually, there are several reasons for it:

1) realism

Scatha has already discussed this. We try not to go out of the way for realism (e.g. not adding much complexity or sacrificing much gameplay for the sake of realism), but we do think it counts for something. We should actually say 'fantasy realism' or 'true to theme' rather than realism. For example, in the books, artefacts are continuous with special items, and people would try extra hard not to lose the named items, rather than knowing they are always safe and being *less* concerned about them.

We are particularly annoyed by things that are so unrealistic that they seem nonsensical. This doesn't come up here, but is a major reason why we have connected stairs.

2) simplicity

It is more complex to have exceptions to the normal item rules for artefacts. Note that realism and simplicity combine to give a default position on artefact being impossible to lose: why should we complicate things to give this unrealistic/unthematic behaviour?

3) not wanting to encourage strange tactics

I think this is the main reason for allowing artefacts to be lost. I had been roughly sticking to the Angband tradition and Scatha (with a fresh perspective) kept pointing out strange things this led to and convinced me to simplify things. For example, if (as in Angband) they can't be lost until identified, then there are sometimes strong reasons to not identify things you suspect to be artefacts. The major one is that given Sil makes artefacts less common the more you find, so you might try to deliberately not find the weak ones. I could remove this balancing factor, but I think that would be a much much bigger game balance change. The diminishing artefact finds actually smooths out two key things with artefacts. It makes people find a more regular number of them, and it lets people find weaker ones earlier without finding too many later.

There are a number of other strange out-of-character tactics it creates, or which come up if you try to fix this one.

4) allowing interesting non-lethal challenges

If an orc thief picks up a suspected artefact (or other great item) it creates an interesting short term challenge: can you stop them escaping? This involves unusual tactical challenges, is often possible with clever play, and is not that bad if you fail. Indeed it is more of a carrot challenge than a stick challenge -- a bit like having a mini quest that would give you a great item if you succeed and no penalty if you fail.


Now that I see we still have the 'artefacts immune to theft' rule from Angband, I'm actually inclined to remove that and allow them to be stolen (if they are in your pack). There is only one (rare) type of monster that can do this. It appears quite early in the game when you probably only have a few artefacts. You can always just wear the artefact to prevent any loss, so I don't see a problem with this.

[wobbly]

It also needs to be considered how good it is, and whether forcing Preserve mode to Off does add flavor to the practical experience of playing the game.

I like it off. It adds to the tension when you can see an item in a room that could be good & an enemy that could kill you.

[BlueFish]

I agree that it would be good to telegraph, but what would be a good way to do it?

Probably merits a bullet point or two in the manual's section on changes from Vanilla.

* "Preserve Artefacts" mode is permanently off, which means any artifact, discovered or not, generated on a level, will never be generated again.
* Monsters can pick up artefacts.

It also needs to be considered that how bad it is depends upon the chance of an artifact being spawned at depth X as well as the number of artifacts that are in the game. e.g. stairscumming that has a 10% chance of losing an artifact is worse than if it was a 1% chance, and also worse than 10% chance in a world where less artifacts exist in general.

It also needs to be considered how good it is, and whether forcing Preserve mode to Off does add flavor to the practical experience of playing the game.

Stairscumming is so strongly discouraged by the game, but still for certain builds at certain depths I find myself needing to use them as an escape very often. At depths sufficiently low to generate large levels with decent chances of vaults, I get sickening feelings every time about which artifacts I'm losing. I don't know that a player who's already needing to run away constantly should be further penalized in that way.

But we should keep in mind that according to Scatha there's really only one reason for Preserve mode being off: realism regarding flavor. All the rest of this stuff we're talking about is rationalizations of a behavior that was never rationalized in that way by the creators.

[Patashu]

The only difficulty with that is that I don't think the game telegraphs this as a consequence of stairscumming. I don't recall seeing a warning in the tutorial or the manual, at least.

I agree that it would be good to telegraph, but what would be a good way to do it? It also needs to be considered that how bad it is depends upon the chance of an artifact being spawned at depth X as well as the number of artifacts that are in the game. e.g. stairscumming that has a 10% chance of losing an artifact is worse than if it was a 1% chance, and also worse than 10% chance in a world where less artifacts exist in general.

[BlueFish]

Is it possible for thieves to steal artifacts from your inventory? That's never happened to me, but I often am carrying at least one around.

I checked the source and there's special code there to prevent thieves from stealing artifacts from inventory.

I think it would be better if they also couldn't pick up artifacts from the ground, though I realize this would necessarily apply to the uniques who can pick stuff up. (Orc thieves are the only non-uniques who can, from what I saw.)

[taptap]

The main incentive to diving for me is honestly not the minimal depth but the ladder I am driving my recent chars down (often to early death) in the hope to get <20k turn winners (hopefully also killing Morgoth in the process). Of course there are other mechanisms against scumming - reduced xp returns being the main one.

I noticed with my recent Arand how effective this is. He was stealthy singer at start and started killing things only with Tevildo and Oikeroi. He had impressive strength but no chance to gather the experience I hoped for despite killing lots of things in the deep dungeon. (I got more experience for orc soldiers in the throne room than for vampire lords.) So even with a char that was made for fast dive, loitering about 900 / 950 and then a quick finish - I lost patience with staying at 900/950ft. after doing it twice and went to the throne room.

[debo]

Yeah, it's good to align game mechanics so that they point to the same direction -> the most fun way to play.

Of course, as pointed out earlier in the thread, at the moment preserve off seems to have a real function in preventing stair scumming.

The only difficulty with that is that I don't think the game telegraphs this as a consequence of stairscumming. I don't recall seeing a warning in the tutorial or the manual, at least.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

It's just that it doesn't need to be a downer to think about, is all.

Yeah, it's good to align game mechanics so that they point to the same direction -> the most fun way to play.

Of course, as pointed out earlier in the thread, at the moment preserve off seems to have a real function in preventing stair scumming.

[BlueFish]

I'd imagine that in Sil preserve off gives the player an incentive to clear levels completely? Wouldn't it be better for gameplay if they descended when they're ready?

Yes, and I think the time limit trumps all other considerations when thinking about whether to dive. The possible existence of an artifact over in the opposite corner from the down-stairs might be a downer to think about, but not enough of one to change whether you take the stairs.

It's just that it doesn't need to be a downer to think about, is all.

[BlueFish]

Speaking of scumming 900-950, has anybody ever tried self-sustaining scumming of random re-spawns at 950', maybe with a bunch of "sustenance" equipment on? I wonder if enough food would drop to make that indefinitely sustainable.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I like preserve off in Angband. In Angband, switching dungeon levels has almost no cost, and preserve off introduces interesting challenges occasionally.

In Halls of Mist, I turned preserve artifacts permanently on and removed the option. I had other mechanics that already made it very costly to switch levels, and preserve off wasn't adding anything interesting to the mix.

I'd imagine that in Sil preserve off gives the player an incentive to clear levels completely? Wouldn't it be better for gameplay if they descended when they're ready?

[BlueFish]

I guess it is fairly common among speedy players to repeat 900 or 950 ft. once (or twice?) when you don't feel ready for the throne room and even if done mainly for consumables I won't say no to nice items. And even more so when you play a smith and scout for forges. And a single item can make a lot of difference - especially when it includes abilities / special functionality (sharpness). Say finding Angrist with a pacifist singer makes it unneccessary to take any melee and song of sharpness at all which otherwise consume much of your endgame experience (which is much lower as pacifist but you need something to break out a Sil) or for a fighting singer (w/ mastery) an item boosting song by some more crucial points (either artefact or a nice sword of shadows). While none of this is necessary and there are dozens of possible builds, still single items can do a lot of work in your build.

I agree that found items can help. Indeed.

But there's a difference between rationalizations of how things work, and reasoned justifications that that's how they should work. Scatha presented a reasoned justification for how things work currently, one that I disagree with, but at least a justification. Ultimately you seem to be claiming that Preserve=on would make Sil too easy. I suspect that would not hold up in practice, and that the difficulty of the game would be essentially unchanged.

To me, a very fun part of a roguelike is thinking you might find some certain artifact that might work really well with your build. I think it diminishes that fun thinking that every time you leave a level without exploring it fully, you may have deleted that artifact from the game.

I suspect Preserve=ON is the most common setting in Angband. It is the default, and defaults are chosen to correspond with some combination of community consensus and best gameplay.

[taptap]

I guess it is fairly common among speedy players to repeat 900 or 950 ft. once (or twice?) when you don't feel ready for the throne room and even if done mainly for consumables I won't say no to nice items. And even more so when you play a smith and scout for forges. And a single item can make a lot of difference - especially when it includes abilities / special functionality (sharpness). Say finding Angrist with a pacifist singer makes it unneccessary to take any melee and song of sharpness at all which otherwise consume much of your endgame experience (which is much lower as pacifist but you need something to break out a Sil) or for a fighting singer (w/ mastery) an item boosting song by some more crucial points (either artefact or a nice sword of shadows). While none of this is necessary and there are dozens of possible builds, still single items can do a lot of work in your build.

Usually thieves exist only in a depth I don't have artefacts (is it artifact or artefact btw?) but I found them stealing and gathering a large amount of loot sometimes, I would be surprised if they were coded to ignore artefacts as such.

[Derakon]

I have an ancillary question to this -- does orcrist not slay orcs? (I believe Glamdring does too.) I'm surprised that orc thieves would pick up orc-slaying weapons off the floor! I thought there was some behaviour that caused them to skip over weapons that slay them.

That's certainly true in Vanilla, but personally I always thought it weird because monsters can be generated carrying items that they could not normally pick up. This is glaringly obvious when it comes to artifacts: no monster can pick up an artifact, but you'll get many of them from killing monsters.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sil changed this behavior.

[debo]

I have an ancillary question to this -- does orcrist not slay orcs? (I believe Glamdring does too.) I'm surprised that orc thieves would pick up orc-slaying weapons off the floor! I thought there was some behaviour that caused them to skip over weapons that slay them.