Sil on Roguelike Radio

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  • Darren Grey
    Scout
    • Jan 2013
    • 25

    #76
    Woohoo, this thread isn't dying!

    Originally posted by taptap
    But how is it even possible to make a deterministic stealth other than invisibility on/off?
    What's wrong with invisibility on/off? Let's break out some examples... The following are all stealth-centric roguelikes. They're short games but they specialise entirely on stealth, so they tend to do it well.

    kusemono - You can always see an enemy's viewable area on the map. Normal combat is weighed against you, but hitting an unaware enemy insta-kills them. You have a rush ability that lets you get close quick and kill before they see you. The stealth tension comes from trying to kill groups and meeting unexpected enemies around corners.

    Rogue Assassin - Play as a stealthy assassin. Again you're aware of enemy field of view and must sneak around/kill them. Various items help. Trying to throw enemies off the chase is fun.

    sick peter - A game by me (written in 5 hours, so lacking some polish). An enemy cannot see you if you are more than 3 squares away. They lose track of you if you run away. You're faster than them, so this isn't too hard, but movement costs stamina, forcing you to rest now and then. You cannot attack, so this is a pure stealth game.

    Toby the Trapper - A little off theme here, but this has stealth elements. Again written by me (a 7DRL) - you move twice as fast as enemies and leave a "scent" behind. It's easy enough to lose enemies, but the objective is more to lure them about carefully.

    Shadow Rogue - I can't remember this precisely, but it's a 7DRL with some stealth mechanics that I seem to remember were done pretty well.

    Outside of the sphere of roguelikes there are the Tenchu and Metal Gear Solid games for inspiration - both are very clear to the player about their situation.

    A deterministic stealth system relies on some information not being known to the player. In particular you won't know what's around the next corner, and you can't always predict what the enemy will do next move. Though you are certain in your current turn future turns involve risk, and you have to keep reassessing your situation turn by turn. I quite enjoy this sort of gameplay myself.

    I didn't say I wanted a purely deterministic system by the way (though as seen above it can be done). Just one where you feel less at the mercy of the dice rolls and the modifiers. Or at least more transparency so you know when you're in a secure situation or not.

    As it works currently you can't even give the player full disclosure of the odds, because they are perception checks for monsters you might not even see yourself (nor know their perception skill). For me it would be a complete immersion breaker when I could play a stealthy character without detection risk - risk requires randomness.
    Chess is the counter example. Chess involves risk, but has no randomness - the risk comes from not knowing what the other player will do and only being able to hold so many scenarios in your head at once. Risk requires imperfect information. Randomness can do that, but I'd much rather it be from AI decisions and unknown map layout than a straight roll every damned turn. It feels more fair in the context of a game that should reward tactical decisions.

    Dice in combat: It makes a lot of difference whether you do 1d15 or 2d7 damage (despite the same average damage, because of the different distribution, very important against armor and of course criticals) - adding a lot of flat modifiers would take many tactical choices out of the combat system - it makes much less difference if you only choose between 2d6+6 and 1d6+9 because the modifiers make everything too similar.
    I haven't seen a 1d15 in Sil. In fact the dice ranges seem very very restricted. What's the difference tactically between 2d7+1 and 3d5? There is a little bit of decision based on strength and weapon weight but overall I found no hard decisions between weapons in the game. Of course I didn't get that far, so I'm happy to be corrected on this.

    You also would have to scrap the whole system of critical hits when you start with flat modifiers. Actually, the combat system which you can summarize as strength adds sides, criticals add dice is a piece of simplicity and beauty.
    You hit the monster. Critical hit! 0 damage.

    I don't see the relevance of critical hits in Sil. They don't feel special when x% of the time a regular hit does more damage. The critical hit chance may as well be changed into a constant modifier on the dice rolls for all the good they really do - much more simple and beautiful. There is no way to tactically take advantage of critical hits, and in normal play you only notice them against very strong enemies. Does anyone actually build characters around maximising crits at the expense of other bonuses? Because I can't see how this would actually work well in Sil. It's just too random to take advantage of.

    But please, do correct me if I'm completely wrong about this!

    Comment

    • Darren Grey
      Scout
      • Jan 2013
      • 25

      #77
      Originally posted by half
      The main theory behind the curved sword is that you have somehow got into Angband (perhaps disguise, or being captured) and are unarmed (you would lose the fun of upgrades if you had a good starting setup) and you see a discarded orcish weapon nearby, which lets you turn your situation around and start trading up to good equipment. We tried having a broken sword instead for a while and found this a little too hard (though fun) so you will only find a broken sword in Nightmare mode when that is added.
      The disguise entry doesn't make a great deal of sense story-wise, and still doesn't explain not bringing a few more basics. Beren brought a rather nice dagger into Angband whilst disguised!

      If the story is meant to be one of an escaped thrall, it would be nice to see this reflected a bit more in the gameplay. Escaped thrall certainly makes some sense; you manage by cunning to get out of your prison and reach the terrible gates, but before dashing away a thought creeps over your mind, and the temptation to try something daring and heroic takes over your being. But if one has escaped from servitude in the pits of Angband then some shadow of that should still lie over you - not to the crippling extent of Gwindor, but there could still be a darkness on the player that must be overcome before one can touch the Silmaril. This could be a route to introducing some light/darkness mechanics earlier in the game.

      Comment

      • jdh
        Rookie
        • Jan 2013
        • 10

        #78
        Originally posted by Darren Grey
        I haven't seen a 1d15 in Sil. In fact the dice ranges seem very very restricted. What's the difference tactically between 2d7+1 and 3d5? There is a little bit of decision based on strength and weapon weight but overall I found no hard decisions between weapons in the game. Of course I didn't get that far, so I'm happy to be corrected on this.
        Great Spears have one large die (1d13 I think), and your strength adds sides to it.


        Originally posted by Darren Grey
        There is no way to tactically take advantage of critical hits, and in normal play you only notice them against very strong enemies. Does anyone actually build characters around maximising crits at the expense of other bonuses? Because I can't see how this would actually work well in Sil. It's just too random to take advantage of.
        Yes, here's an extreme example by Psi: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=13440 (note that each ! in "You attack..." is a critical hit).

        Anyone who takes the Assassination ability should be optimizing critical hits, and this is a large part of the choice between a lightweight, low-dice weapon like a shortsword and a heavy, more-dice weapon like a Great Axe or Mattock at the extreme. Light weapons are easier to get critical hits with. Also, all of the abilities that increase your melee score beyond what you need to hit the enemy factor into this: Song of Slaying, Focused Attack, Concentration, Assassination; and the melee abilities Finesse and Subtlety decrease how much your roll needs to win by to get critical hits.

        Comment

        • taptap
          Knight
          • Jan 2013
          • 710

          #79
          Originally posted by Darren Grey
          What's wrong with invisibility on/off?

          Just one where you feel less at the mercy of the dice rolls and the modifiers. Or at least more transparency so you know when you're in a secure situation or not.

          Chess is the counter example. Chess involves risk, but has no randomness - the risk comes from not knowing what the other player will do and only being able to hold so many scenarios in your head at once.

          I haven't seen a 1d15 in Sil. In fact the dice ranges seem very very restricted.

          I don't see the relevance of critical hits in Sil. ... There is no way to tactically take advantage of critical hits, and in normal play you only notice them against very strong enemies. Does anyone actually build characters around maximising crits at the expense of other bonuses? Because I can't see how this would actually work well in Sil. It's just too random to take advantage of.

          But please, do correct me if I'm completely wrong about this!
          You are wrong!

          It took me a while to understand, but I once found a nice artefact shortsword (1d8) and started to use it instead of the bastard swords I had used before and I realized that my damage output didn't suffer while survivability (it had +3 evasion and I had parry, and I got a free attack by riposte almost every turn further increasing damage output) was suddenly much increased. You can build toward criticals - w/ finesse and subtlety and a 1lb shortsword you get a critical for every 5 points (or 6 points for the artefact shortsword I found or the 2lb longsword many players prefer) you roll above your opponent, with some investment into melee you can reliably do double and triple criticals - combined with boni from stealth (assassination), perception (focus, concentration, master hunter) or song tree (slaying) this can get really deadly - especially assassination(full stealth bonus)+focus(50% perception bonus) often leading to 1-hit kills. Further you can cripple opponents with criticals (and an ability) which helps a lot defensively. If you play a little further you will find that even some of the deadliest monsters in Sil only do 1d9 or similar damage, but rely on high skill and criticals (cats, deathblades).

          A simple great spear with 2 strength already does 1d15 on the other end of the spectrum are 4d1 warhammers (wielded two-handed with 3 strength this is already 4d6) - I uploaded an unfortunate char dying early at 350ft. to the ladder (the newest one) who already had such a weapon for a while so you get them fairly early or you could forge them with little investment in smithing.

          I don't play chess, in Go there is no risk, just an opponent that thinks too.

          In stealth you have very important and completely declared modifiers (though you don't always know monster perception and monster presence) you can get 1d10+10 as your stealth right from start add all modifiers as distance, stealth mode etc. and the random part is in fact pretty small already just giving a window where risk as opposed to invisibility toggling happens. Endgame stealth is easily 20-25 for stealthy characters or even higher with equipment the 1d10 really is just the spice to the system.

          Comment

          • HallucinationMushroom
            Knight
            • Apr 2007
            • 785

            #80
            Chess 960, for the win. Random map + complete information of battlefield. Everybody wins. Wait, wrong forum.
            You are on something strange

            Comment

            • Psi
              Knight
              • Apr 2007
              • 870

              #81
              Originally posted by half
              I really like your idea of having a few sample characters that start with an interesting and sensible stat choice and experience investment. The idea of having the default of the main menu change is good too. We wanted to get new players to try the tutorial as we think it is a great way to learn the game, but this could get put out of the way after that. Congratulations on surviving the tutorial -- the fire drake is *very* out of depth so it is tricky, but did you know that the game also tracks whether you have killed the fire drake. It is possible, but very tough (and inspired by Powder's tutorial). It is probably an exercise in frustration to try it until you have more experience with the ins and outs of the game though.
              Hi half - having read the above, I just went back through the tutorial and killed the fire drake. In what way does the game track it - or is it just the message about finishing the tutorial in fine form?

              Comment

              • debo
                Veteran
                • Oct 2011
                • 2402

                #82
                Originally posted by Darren Grey
                If the story is meant to be one of an escaped thrall, it would be nice to see this reflected a bit more in the gameplay. Escaped thrall certainly makes some sense; you manage by cunning to get out of your prison and reach the terrible gates
                If we go this route, call @ "BJ Blackowitz" by default, and have orcs scream "mein leiben" when you slay them
                Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'

                Comment

                • Darren Grey
                  Scout
                  • Jan 2013
                  • 25

                  #83
                  Originally posted by taptap
                  You are wrong!
                  Aha! I'm glad I professed my probable ignorance in advance I fully concede. And from your other comments it seems there is much more weapon variety than I have encountered.

                  This possibly ties in with my previous comments on how there isn't much choice at the start of the game. The guaranteed same sword each game perhaps makes this worse, as it leads to very samey starting gameplay.

                  Comment

                  • half
                    Knight
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 910

                    #84
                    Originally posted by Psi
                    Hi half - having read the above, I just went back through the tutorial and killed the fire drake. In what way does the game track it - or is it just the message about finishing the tutorial in fine form?
                    Yeah, that's all (at the moment). Good work though!

                    Comment

                    • BlueFish
                      Swordsman
                      • Aug 2011
                      • 414

                      #85
                      Originally posted by Darren Grey
                      Hullo all. I'm not normally a *band fan, but Sil rather caught my fancy. Andrew Doull and I have just covered it on Roguelike Radio:

                      Roguelike Radio episode 59 is here, with Andrew Doull and Darren Grey discussing Sil .


                      I wasn't all positive about the game, as there are a number of things I didn't like about the way combat is handled, but overall I am hugely impressed with the design focus. I'd like to get into the game more and cover it in more depth in a later episode. I'd be keen to hear some counter-points from veteran players, and maybe details of important areas where we've missed out.
                      Yeah, the podcast was a bit of an abortion. I like roguelikes as much as the next guy. Probably more, I dare say, by any objective measure.

                      Darren, you look at angband with scorn. I appreciate and sometimes enjoy your podcast (which is to say I listen to an episode once in a while), but I never get the strong impression that you get roguelikes. You have specific tastes in computer games, but your tastes merely overlap with roguelikes.

                      The ADOM thing? ADOM is a decent enough roguelike game combined with a Dungeons and Dragons module. It's an adventure game as much as it is a roguelike.

                      You don't get the difference. Roguelikes are NEVER about story. They are ALWAYS about mechanics.

                      And dice rolls.

                      There is objective evidence of this.

                      There's a reason Blizzard North has made millionaires of lots of game designers and programmers.

                      It's not because they modeled their games after what you like.

                      Comment

                      • Scatha
                        Swordsman
                        • Jan 2012
                        • 414

                        #86
                        Originally posted by BlueFish
                        Roguelikes are NEVER about story. They are ALWAYS about mechanics.

                        And dice rolls.

                        There is objective evidence of this.
                        Hi BlueFish, I understand that you didn't like the podcast, but this bit of your reply seems pretty controversial to me. To start I would have said that Sil was, to a significant degree, about the story (as well as the mechanics). And I'm not sure how you can claim objective evidence for the meaning of the term.

                        Comment

                        • BlueFish
                          Swordsman
                          • Aug 2011
                          • 414

                          #87
                          Hi, Scatha. I think there's a big difference between Sil's story, which is really a context borrowed entirely from Tolkein, and ADOM's novel story, which is a plot the player journeys through a la an adventure game, complete with new geographical locations and an evolving and dictated narrative. To the extent that "adventure game" means anything, ADOM has those elements, and Sil has virtually none of them. ADOM is a hybrid game and not a pure roguelike.

                          I totally get that people like that. For similar reasons, CRPGs are judged based on the quality of their story, while the mechanics are an afterthought. (Indeed fighting, in which mechanics are most easily expressed, is something to be avoided through narrative.) I like to keep roguelikes distinct from that, because that is the origin of the genre, and what people originally liked about the genre. And it's not a trivial old fashioned taste. It projects very clearly to Diablo and all its mega popularity amongst poeple who would never consider playing a turn based ascii game. The projections of something like ADOM (or TOME for that matter) into anything commercial (which is about as close as we can come to objective popularity) are far less impressive.

                          I remember how everybody loved Planescape Torment. What a story. Those who questioned whether it was actually a fun game were scorned.

                          It was a commercial failure, and I think for good reason.

                          CRPG and adventure game stories top out at the level of young adult fiction. The art I appreciate in games is in the mechanics (or in the case of adventure games, the puzzles, and how they blend with the story). Sil's story is a great piece of art, but Sil players absorbed that story years before they started playing the game.

                          Comment

                          • Darren Grey
                            Scout
                            • Jan 2013
                            • 25

                            #88
                            You should listen to our episode on Elitism

                            Roguelikes come in many flavours. Just because you don't like certain aspects in certain games doesn't mean they're not part of the genre. It just means they're not part of what you like.

                            I used to joke about Angband being bad to tease Andrew, but I don't really hate it. It's not my sort of roguelike, especially not these days, but if it had caught me at the right time I'm sure I would have loved it. Sil is much much much better, and I find it a shame that few people have heard of it in comparison to Angband.

                            Comment

                            • BlueFish
                              Swordsman
                              • Aug 2011
                              • 414

                              #89
                              sorry didn't mean to post that
                              Last edited by BlueFish; September 9, 2013, 08:16.

                              Comment

                              • BlueFish
                                Swordsman
                                • Aug 2011
                                • 414

                                #90
                                I did listen to the whole podcast, by the way. Thank you.

                                The most prominent point: you flail away against the lexical implications of the title of your podcast: "Roguelike radio". You hate the fact that "Roguelike" means something.

                                I think you should consider how that word and its *meaning* helps people to decide whether to listen to your podcast.

                                Don't dismiss it.
                                Last edited by BlueFish; September 9, 2013, 08:17.

                                Comment

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