Sil 1.0.2

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  • Scatha
    Swordsman
    • Jan 2012
    • 414

    Originally posted by WaveMotion
    I find myself occasionally annoyed by Mewlips' map-amnesia effect, which I believe to be an interface problem. A similar effect was removed from Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup because it made it optimal to take screenshots of the level in order to negate the in-game effect. Although I wouldn't suggest that Sil devs should do something just because Crawl did it, the same argument applies equally well for both games, since it's simple for me to take a screenshot of the level whenever I encounter an amnesia-causing creature. Removal of the amnesia effect would improve Sil's interface, and I don't think the game would suffer much from the loss of a feature. Mewlips are more interesting for their fear effect anyway. Thoughts?
    It is a valid point that there is a cost to this amnesia (and a similar but smaller one with herbs of rage). That said, I think you're overstating the case somewhat for removing the memory wiping.

    The main difference between the costs in the two games is that Crawl has persistent levels, which will make loss of map much more annoying than in Sil, which does not. We considered having Mewlips make you forget the flavours of items that you'd discovered, but rejected this for similar reasons to Crawl's amnesia-removal: it would be very annoying and really encourage the player to make external notes on their discoveries.

    The memory wiping in Sil is a much more local effect, and more cosmetic than anything else, since the levels at that depth are not vast, and you will normally have a reasonable impression remaining of how things connected and where the stairs are, but perhaps be unable to recall precise details. Its benefit is that it feels cool and exciting rather than that it produces particularly interesting choices (whereas a lot of the game is geared towards those interesting choices).

    Now, that isn't a huge benefit, but it's a pretty small cost, too. My feeling is that the size of the benefit outweighs the cost (but I could be wrong).

    By the way, I suspect you are making the annoyance larger by taking screenshots (if you are in fact doing so). My guess is that you would enjoy it more with the added challenge of not using screenshots or other memory aids to record the dungeon on encountering a Mewlip (and this is how it is intended to be approached). Most of the time you're likely to find you lose nothing except cumbersome computer interaction; occasionally you may misremember and dive into the wrong corridor, and this could get you killed, but that's actually pretty cool if you can conceive this as a valid effect of the memory-wiping rather than an annoyance that only happened because you couldn't be bothered to screenshot-scum.

    Does that begin to persuade you?

    Comment

    • debo
      Veteran
      • Oct 2011
      • 2402

      Originally posted by WaveMotion
      Hey guys, still having fun with this game—haven't played any other since I found it a couple of months ago.

      I find myself occasionally annoyed by Mewlips' map-amnesia effect, which I believe to be an interface problem. A similar effect was removed from Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup because it made it optimal to take screenshots of the level in order to negate the in-game effect. Although I wouldn't suggest that Sil devs should do something just because Crawl did it, the same argument applies equally well for both games, since it's simple for me to take a screenshot of the level whenever I encounter an amnesia-causing creature. Removal of the amnesia effect would improve Sil's interface, and I don't think the game would suffer much from the loss of a feature. Mewlips are more interesting for their fear effect anyway. Thoughts?
      Amnesia is interesting to me in Sil b/c there are no escapes. I've died a couple of times because I was fleeing from a pack of orcs to a staircase, and a mewlip wiped my memory, thus causing me to lose my way. I think that's pretty neat.

      For myself, I'd equate screenshotting to savescumming, since my memory is awful I probably wouldn't feel comfortable posting a character where I used screenshotting to dodge mewlips (or dragons, which are much worse).

      I'd be sad if this feature was removed from the game.
      Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'

      Comment

      • jujuben
        Apprentice
        • Jan 2012
        • 56

        Also, mewlips and gorcrows hang out at similar depths, giving rise to the rather awesome (if slightly annoying) dying @ in a blank black screen...
        A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.
        --The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates

        Comment

        • Philip
          Knight
          • Jul 2009
          • 909

          Could something be done about the overabundance of orc soldiers(the gray ones) at 50 feet? I understand that if you go up on the first staircases you find, there should be a pack guarding the forge and a pack or so on the level, but this is the third time in very short succesion that I've been slaughtered on dlevel 1, sometimes even one without a forge.

          Comment

          • half
            Knight
            • Jan 2009
            • 910

            Originally posted by WaveMotion
            I find myself occasionally annoyed by Mewlips' map-amnesia effect, which I believe to be an interface problem.
            Like Scatha, I'm sympathetic to this idea (and it is indeed why there is no object-flavour amnesia in Sil), but think that the advantages significantly outweigh the disadvantages. For reference, there are some pretty major games that involve such a memory/interface issue, such as Bridge (and almost all other card games), and many modern board games by very good designers (such as Reiner Knizia).

            Comment

            • WaveMotion
              Apprentice
              • Apr 2012
              • 53

              Originally posted by Scatha
              By the way, I suspect you are making the annoyance larger by taking screenshots (if you are in fact doing so). My guess is that you would enjoy it more with the added challenge of not using screenshots or other memory aids to record the dungeon on encountering a Mewlip (and this is how it is intended to be approached). Most of the time you're likely to find you lose nothing except cumbersome computer interaction; occasionally you may misremember and dive into the wrong corridor, and this could get you killed, but that's actually pretty cool if you can conceive this as a valid effect of the memory-wiping rather than an annoyance that only happened because you couldn't be bothered to screenshot-scum.

              Does that begin to persuade you?
              I probably overstated my annoyance with the feature! I wasn't ever really taking screenshots; I just mentioned that behavior as a tedious optimum in a theoretical sense. I've since realized that what I find iffy is the conflation between player memory and character memory, but that's a matter of personal taste, and nothing I can't be cool with. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

              Comment

              • T-Mick
                Adept
                • Mar 2012
                • 120

                It sounds like everyone wants this game to be easier. I say, if you can make it harder, while still maintaining balance, go for it.

                Comment

                • jujuben
                  Apprentice
                  • Jan 2012
                  • 56

                  Hrm... The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that giving the big V (or an ascent only escort of some sort) a beefed up (enough to hit average-will @s on a semi regular basis, and highish will @s if they're really unlucky, but leave will specialists alone) version on 2 or 3 Silmaril ascents could make for some really... interesting... gameplay.

                  Sure it's a bit sadistic, but major victories are supposed to be hard.
                  A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.
                  --The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates

                  Comment

                  • debo
                    Veteran
                    • Oct 2011
                    • 2402

                    Originally posted by jujuben
                    Hrm... The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that giving the big V (or an ascent only escort of some sort) a beefed up (enough to hit average-will @s on a semi regular basis, and highish will @s if they're really unlucky, but leave will specialists alone) version on 2 or 3 Silmaril ascents could make for some really... interesting... gameplay.

                    Sure it's a bit sadistic, but major victories are supposed to be hard.
                    You'd have to beef everything about V to make that work. High will + majesty makes him flee; and w 25+ stealth, I'm willing to bet that he will never, ever see you.
                    Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'

                    Comment

                    • debo
                      Veteran
                      • Oct 2011
                      • 2402

                      Originally posted by T-Mick
                      It sounds like everyone wants this game to be easier. I say, if you can make it harder, while still maintaining balance, go for it.
                      Isn't that what the "lesser" races are for?
                      Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'

                      Comment

                      • T-Mick
                        Adept
                        • Mar 2012
                        • 120

                        Originally posted by debo
                        Isn't that what the "lesser" races are for?
                        Yes, but things like amnesia and purple molds are fun. I don't think messing with things like that is a good idea.

                        Comment

                        • debo
                          Veteran
                          • Oct 2011
                          • 2402

                          Originally posted by T-Mick
                          Yes, but things like amnesia and purple molds are fun. I don't think messing with things like that is a good idea.
                          That, I will agree with I think I bashed purple molds a few pages back, but I can deal with them the way they are. Amnesia I definitely like!

                          I still have some qualms about certain things, but it's more out of source material-ness than difficulty. Wargs are a big beef of mine -- IMO they are way deadlier than any orc in Sil, which I'm pretty sure wasn't implied in the books
                          Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'

                          Comment

                          • Jungle_Boy
                            Swordsman
                            • Nov 2008
                            • 434

                            Small bug: It looks like staves of self knowledge do not work on weapons in your off-hand.

                            Also, and I am not sure if this is a bug or not, with two weapon fighting and assassination you get the bonus to both attacks even though the messages seem to indicate the monster wakes up and notices you after the first one.
                            My first winner: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=10138

                            Comment

                            • half
                              Knight
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 910

                              Originally posted by debo
                              That, I will agree with I think I bashed purple molds a few pages back, but I can deal with them the way they are. Amnesia I definitely like!

                              I still have some qualms about certain things, but it's more out of source material-ness than difficulty. Wargs are a big beef of mine -- IMO they are way deadlier than any orc in Sil, which I'm pretty sure wasn't implied in the books
                              They are a bit too dangerous I agree. We're going to tone them back a little.

                              Comment

                              • debo
                                Veteran
                                • Oct 2011
                                • 2402

                                Originally posted by half
                                They are a bit too dangerous I agree. We're going to tone them back a little.
                                I dunno -- I'm not sure if White Wolves were canon or an invention of yours, but if you just swapped the two w/out any gameplay changes, I'd probably be happy haha. I have no idea what a white wolf is, but it's conceivable that it might be that dangerous!
                                Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'

                                Comment

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