Instadeath mitigation: "dying" status

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  • Nick
    Vanilla maintainer
    • Apr 2007
    • 9633

    #31
    Originally posted by debo
    At least Vanilla doesn't have Hounds of Tindalos!!!!!
    Yet.

    So how would you feel if we introduced those and rockets?
    One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
    In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

    Comment

    • wobbly
      Prophet
      • May 2012
      • 2627

      #32
      You know a rocket launcher would actually fit a variant like steamband, as long as it was steam powered and had more bits and gadgets attached to it then strictly necessary. ...

      Comment

      • debo
        Veteran
        • Oct 2011
        • 2402

        #33
        Originally posted by Nick
        Yet.

        So how would you feel if we introduced those and rockets?
        net positive, i think. Also, it's still canon, Gandalf made rockets for Bilbo's birthday party!
        Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'

        Comment

        • Derakon
          Prophet
          • Dec 2009
          • 9022

          #34
          Originally posted by wobbly
          You know a rocket launcher would actually fit a variant like steamband, as long as it was steam powered and had more bits and gadgets attached to it then strictly necessary. ...
          I'm pretty sure that Steamband has rocket launchers already.

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          • Lord Tom
            Apprentice
            • Nov 2009
            • 73

            #35
            Another thought along the "providing cues" line would be for certain devastating attacks (Great Wyrm breath, mana storm) to be 2-turn attacks for the monster. The first turn there's a message like 'The Great Wyrm of Balance draws in a powerful breath' or 'The Black Reaver weaves a mighty incantation'. The monster's second turn they let loose. Various tweaks are possible, e.g. a % chance of getting the warning, or only on the first time the monster uses the attack, etc. Also, they could still unleash the attack the next turn even if the player ducks around a corner.

            I see the argument that abating instadeath with any method would make the game too easy. But I'd say that gives an opportunity to make the game more difficult in other ways that improve interesting gameplay. Thoughts include reduced ranges on teleport/portal, give monsters a save vs TO.

            For me, a big part of the draw of Angband is difficult tactical situations, with multiple monsters/threats I have to manage/abate to achieve some aim with minimal risk. Playing to ensure that no unseen/undetected monster ever gets a single turn on me unawares is, don't get me wrong, an interesting challenge. But I think increasing the danger/tenacity of the more routine threats could compensate.
            Last edited by Lord Tom; November 4, 2014, 15:23.

            Comment

            • Lord Tom
              Apprentice
              • Nov 2009
              • 73

              #36
              With the "dying status" idea, I can imagine it working if you need perhaps a wearable item that provides the "second chance" power. If you suffer an appropriately devastating attack, the item glows brightly and saves you, by the skin of your teeth - but to compensate the item (whatever it was) is destroyed.

              That could make for interesting gameplay tradeoffs as players who value instadeath protection need to prioritize acquiring/maintaining it, and presumably sacrificing other powers.

              Comment

              • Carnivean
                Knight
                • Sep 2013
                • 527

                #37
                The item need not be destroyed, it could just be otherwise useless. A Ring of Second Chances could be given to all starting characters, and give the effect Derakon described. It wouldn't be part of anyone's end game kit or even mid game kit if they were an experienced player.

                Comment

                • Derakon
                  Prophet
                  • Dec 2009
                  • 9022

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Carnivean
                  The item need not be destroyed, it could just be otherwise useless. A Ring of Second Chances could be given to all starting characters, and give the effect Derakon described. It wouldn't be part of anyone's end game kit or even mid game kit if they were an experienced player.
                  I like this idea. Especially putting it on the already-massively-oversubscribed ring slot so there's a lot of competition for it.

                  Comment

                  • Lord Tom
                    Apprentice
                    • Nov 2009
                    • 73

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Carnivean
                    The item need not be destroyed, it could just be otherwise useless. A Ring of Second Chances could be given to all starting characters, and give the effect Derakon described. It wouldn't be part of anyone's end game kit or even mid game kit if they were an experienced player.
                    Interesting...I like the idea of a single-purpose ring as well. I'd still favor the ring being destroyed when invoked (or maybe need to recharge or something), but that's not a big deal either way.

                    Comment

                    • AnonymousHero
                      Veteran
                      • Jun 2007
                      • 1393

                      #40
                      Make it an artifact (which means you won't find another one, ever) and give it "N" uses before it's destroyed. Personally, I'd favor N=1 and call it the "Ring of Second Chances".

                      Comment

                      • Derakon
                        Prophet
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 9022

                        #41
                        Given that this is an item that a) is explicitly intended to be a newbie assist, and b) requires sacrificing a ring slot to do nothing except protect you from instant death, I don't really see the need to make it limited, and I especially don't see the need to make it hard to find.

                        I mean sure, if it restored you to full health on "dying" or something, that'd be different. But the proposed behavior just leaves you hovering right above death, such that you're basically certain to really die unless things work out just so. Having to sacrifice a ring slot for that seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me.

                        Comment

                        • AnonymousHero
                          Veteran
                          • Jun 2007
                          • 1393

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Derakon
                          Given that this is an item that a) is explicitly intended to be a newbie assist, and b) requires sacrificing a ring slot to do nothing except protect you from instant death, I don't really see the need to make it limited, and I especially don't see the need to make it hard to find.

                          I mean sure, if it restored you to full health on "dying" or something, that'd be different. But the proposed behavior just leaves you hovering right above death, such that you're basically certain to really die unless things work out just so. Having to sacrifice a ring slot for that seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me.
                          I was thinking around the rarity of the Phial, but yeah, I could be sold on just giving it to the player. (But it should still be an artifact to prevent scumming.)

                          Comment

                          • Derakon
                            Prophet
                            • Dec 2009
                            • 9022

                            #43
                            Originally posted by AnonymousHero
                            I was thinking around the rarity of the Phial, but yeah, I could be sold on just giving it to the player. (But it should still be an artifact to prevent scumming.)
                            Oldschool Phial rarity or modern rarity?

                            What kind of scumming would people do with such a ring?

                            Comment

                            • AnonymousHero
                              Veteran
                              • Jun 2007
                              • 1393

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Derakon
                              Oldschool Phial rarity or modern rarity?

                              What kind of scumming would people do with such a ring?
                              Heh, point taken! Let's just it give it to them!

                              Comment

                              • Atanvarno
                                Rookie
                                • May 2009
                                • 9

                                #45
                                In addition to the "didn't see that coming" instadeath, there is the "calculated risk" instadeath, which I view as an interesting part of the game.

                                A typical example would be that you have to teleport away an instadeath monster to be able to clear a vault, and the only way to do it is to spend at least one turn in its LOS. Then you have to decide whether the reward is worth the small risk.

                                A Ring of Second Chances could trivialize some of those situations, if you were willing to sacrifice an inventory slot for carrying it as a swap. Of course there are many ways to make such a ring less useful (e.g., it gets destroyed if you take it off, or it prevents teleport other, or it doesn't work inside vaults, or...)

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