Manifesto

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Nick
    Vanilla maintainer
    • Apr 2007
    • 9634

    Manifesto

    I know of at least one person who is still keen on *band-related coding in C (hint: it's me). In light of this, I have prepared an item for discussion.

    Read and comment pls
    One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
    In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
  • Derakon
    Prophet
    • Dec 2009
    • 9022

    #2
    All's I can say is, I wouldn't want to try to write Pyrel in C. Of course, presumably you'd be able to re-use a lot of the existing code, so it's not as bad as that, but I'd wager a good 80% of the code will need to be touched or at least examined in this project.

    I wish you luck! It'd certainly be nice to have an Angband codebase with good separation between layers.

    Comment

    • Magnate
      Angband Devteam member
      • May 2007
      • 5110

      #3
      Well, since you asked. My first observation is that this looks to have quite a bit in common with both AngbandBase and CoreUISplit - two previous attempts to do part of this. Full marks for upping the levels of ambition and abstraction. FWIW I agree that it's good to have this and Pyrel going in parallel.

      Second, I think this will only work if you get the categories right - and this is one of the rare cases where there *is* a right answer. In consultant-speak it's called MECE - Mutually Exclusive and Collectively Exhaustive. This means that any piece of code or game concept (either gameplay or meta) must fit clearly and obviously into one and only one category.

      It's much, much harder than it sounds.

      So, you've started with:

      Library
      UI
      Game utility
      Game interface
      World
      Character
      Monster
      Object

      I won't attempt to set out a complete solution here - I don't have enough hours - but here are some disordered observations:

      - monster spells and player spells should use the same code, which you've put in World. If player spell selection is handled by the UI that just leaves spellbook mappings in Character. Monster spell selection is part of AI in Monster.

      - the Game Utility category should be dispersed: some of it can go into Library and others should be part of a Buildsystem category.

      - Game Interface and Character aren't really distinct - the command handling is split across the two. I'd be tempted to put Options and Prefs and file handling stuff into UI. I think I might get rid of Game Interface altogether (I've redrafted this bullet about five times), dispersing its contents between Character and UI (and perhaps Library)

      So that would give you Library, UI, World, Character, Monster and Object - and possibly Buildsystem. IMO that's cleaner but still not perfect.
      "Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The Beatles

      Comment

      • DaviddesJ
        Swordsman
        • Mar 2008
        • 254

        #4
        Having parallel development in C and python can only be a good thing.
        Why would parallel development in C and Python be a good thing? My intuition is that there is a relatively limited amount of resources available for "core Angband development", it would be better to focus those resources in one direction or the other rather than do both. E.g., if I were to get involved in core Angband development, I could work on a C version, or I could work on a Python version. If I do one then I'm not going to do the other.

        Comment

        • Derakon
          Prophet
          • Dec 2009
          • 9022

          #5
          I suspect no one dev is going to try to evenly split their time between Angband and Pyrel. It's more that the two provide differing advantages and disadvantages:

          Angband:
          * Complete codebase; game is playable
          * Many people know their way around the code already
          * Large codebase
          * Code may be inflexible and/or difficult to modify

          Pyrel:
          * Incomplete, unplayable
          * Few people know how it all works
          * Codebase is small
          * Design is published (in forum posts, granted); code is relatively easy to learn
          * Code is flexible and easy to modify

          If you are a current variant maintainer, you would probably be much more interested in seeing what happens with a redesigned Angband than you would be in trying to adapt your own codebase to Pyrel. Most likely the redesigned Angband would be easier to port your code changes to -- after all, you've already written them, they would just need to be plugged into new places. And the non-code changes (i.e. edit file changes) most likely wouldn't require any modification at all.

          Comment

          • Antoine
            Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
            • Nov 2007
            • 1010

            #6
            Originally posted by Nick
            I know of at least one person who is still keen on *band-related coding in C (hint: it's me). In light of this, I have prepared an item for discussion.

            Read and comment pls
            To help me understand - is the proposal to restructure the codebase, without any changes to interface or gameplay?

            A.
            Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/

            Comment

            • Derakon
              Prophet
              • Dec 2009
              • 9022

              #7
              Correct. One of the big problems with making changes in the code right now is that it's hard to tell what bits of code use what other bits of code; the codebase is largely an unstructured mess of interdependencies. Cleaning that up would be a Big Win, making it much easier to make changes that do affect gameplay.

              Comment

              • DaviddesJ
                Swordsman
                • Mar 2008
                • 254

                #8
                Originally posted by Derakon
                If you are a current variant maintainer, you would probably be much more interested in seeing what happens with a redesigned Angband than you would be in trying to adapt your own codebase to Pyrel.
                Maybe, but I would think that most existing variants would just ignore the restructuring rather than try to adopt it. And for new variants it might be better to get the Python effort fully launched. I still have the feeling that there should be one effort aimed at "Angband restructuring" rather than two. I'm not trying to discourage anyone, just giving my thoughts.

                Comment

                • Antoine
                  Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
                  • Nov 2007
                  • 1010

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Derakon
                  Correct. One of the big problems with making changes in the code right now is that it's hard to tell what bits of code use what other bits of code; the codebase is largely an unstructured mess of interdependencies. Cleaning that up would be a Big Win, making it much easier to make changes that do affect gameplay.
                  One good thing about this project is that no-one will complain about anything you do because you will not be breaking anything from the user perspective. That should make it quite pleasing to be involved with.

                  A.
                  Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/

                  Comment

                  • Magnate
                    Angband Devteam member
                    • May 2007
                    • 5110

                    #10
                    Originally posted by DaviddesJ
                    Maybe, but I would think that most existing variants would just ignore the restructuring rather than try to adopt it. And for new variants it might be better to get the Python effort fully launched. I still have the feeling that there should be one effort aimed at "Angband restructuring" rather than two. I'm not trying to discourage anyone, just giving my thoughts.
                    In an ideal world I'd agree completely - it seems silly to split scarce resource between to significantly overlapping objectives. But we'll never force people to use Python if they'd rather code in C, and Derakon shows no signs of abandoning Pyrel either, so we're stuck with both for the foreseeable. My point about this being a good thing was that it enables design learning made in one to be applied in the other (insofar as C/Python permits).
                    "Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The Beatles

                    Comment

                    • ekolis
                      Knight
                      • Apr 2007
                      • 921

                      #11
                      People actually prefer coding in C? Masochists...
                      You read the scroll labeled NOBIMUS UPSCOTI...
                      You are surrounded by a stasis field!
                      The tengu tries to teleport, but fails!

                      Comment

                      • DaviddesJ
                        Swordsman
                        • Mar 2008
                        • 254

                        #12
                        If you're solving a big computational problem, coding in C could be a lot better than Python. For a game like this, where you don't care about performance, pretty much the only advantage is the existing codebase. That's obviously a big advantage, though.

                        Comment

                        • ekolis
                          Knight
                          • Apr 2007
                          • 921

                          #13
                          Only in terms of saving time in the short term, though. Do you really want to base all your code on a brittle old framework that costs massive amounts of time to maintain?
                          You read the scroll labeled NOBIMUS UPSCOTI...
                          You are surrounded by a stasis field!
                          The tengu tries to teleport, but fails!

                          Comment

                          • Nick
                            Vanilla maintainer
                            • Apr 2007
                            • 9634

                            #14
                            OK, this might be long. I'll start with some responses:
                            Originally posted by Magnate
                            My first observation is that this looks to have quite a bit in common with both AngbandBase and CoreUISplit - two previous attempts to do part of this.
                            As I said, unoriginal Once you look, the same issues keep arising.

                            Originally posted by Magnate
                            In consultant-speak it's called MECE - Mutually Exclusive and Collectively Exhaustive
                            ...and a partition in mathematician-speak

                            Originally posted by Magnate
                            the Game Utility category should be dispersed: some of it can go into Library and others should be part of a Buildsystem category
                            I actually said more or less that - that category was just laziness on my part. The Buildsystem category is a good point, although I guess I was taking that as a kind of outer assumption.

                            Originally posted by Magnate
                            Game Interface and Character aren't really distinct - the command handling is split across the two. I'd be tempted to put Options and Prefs and file handling stuff into UI. I think I might get rid of Game Interface altogether (I've redrafted this bullet about five times), dispersing its contents between Character and UI (and perhaps Library)
                            That extra layer of communication only really emerged as I was writing it down. You may be right; I think that Game Interface will make the whole thing harder to do, but increase the clarity of the final product. The other big advantage of keeping it distinct from the UI is that it simplifies the task of writing a native UI. It is really quite tricky - I see why you redrafted five times (but hyphen, not bullet - what kind of consultant are you?)

                            Originally posted by DaviddesJ
                            I would think that most existing variants would just ignore the restructuring rather than try to adopt it. And for new variants it might be better to get the Python effort fully launched. I still have the feeling that there should be one effort aimed at "Angband restructuring" rather than two. I'm not trying to discourage anyone, just giving my thoughts.
                            This is completely true - in the abstract. The point here is motivation, so I'll explain mine.

                            I have an existing variant and another, ah, thing, which (despite some temptation) have kept me from getting on the Pyrel train. These are fairly heavily based on approximately current Angband code, so the restructure is actually a win for me. I'm also kind of fond of the C codebase. We've had some good times together.

                            I also completely understand the motivation of the Pyrel people - python seems like a really good fit for Angband, and I think they'll make a go of it. Basically we do this stuff mainly for fun, so you have to go where the fun is. So if parallel development is happening anyway, we may as well make a virtue of it

                            Originally posted by Antoine
                            One good thing about this project is that no-one will complain about anything you do because you will not be breaking anything from the user perspective. That should make it quite pleasing to be involved with.
                            Got it in one. As usual.

                            Originally posted by ekolis
                            People actually prefer coding in C?
                            Yes.

                            Originally posted by ekolis
                            Do you really want to base all your code on a brittle old framework that costs massive amounts of time to maintain?
                            No. Luckily it isn't brittle, it's not a cost, and I'm hoping to save time in the long run.

                            Finally, a little on ways and means. I have made a branch on my angband fork on github, called manifesto. But I'm not claiming any ownership of this process. We can just take it as it comes.
                            One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                            In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                            Comment

                            • takkaria
                              Veteran
                              • Apr 2007
                              • 1951

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Nick
                              I know of at least one person who is still keen on *band-related coding in C (hint: it's me). In light of this, I have prepared an item for discussion.

                              Read and comment pls
                              Looks good. I'm happy to share my thoughts on how to design the core-UI split in a doc if anyone is interested. I have a bunch of work in my local repository that needs maybe another day of work, but is definitely a step forward towards a workable core-ui split.
                              takkaria whispers something about options. -more-

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              😀
                              😂
                              🥰
                              😘
                              🤢
                              😎
                              😞
                              😡
                              👍
                              👎