Future of Angband development

[buzzkill]

I find far more tension in modern stat drain, since I can't just go back to town and then townscum for a few thousand turns to get my stats restored. Of course in the early game the drained stats go away pretty quickly, but what about when the next level is several hundred thousand experience points away?

Many players, mostly newbs, never reach the point where level-ups are few and far between. They die long before that. The change to level-up based stat restoration makes stat drain almost entirely irrelevant to this class of players (which I include myself in, which I'll also go out on a limb and call the majority), and for the first half of the game for anyone.

The stat-restoration process was never the problem, town-scumming was the problem, that and the over arching PoV that the player shouldn't have to deal with any genuine hardship, such as prolonged stat-drain, because such things are "tedious". There is something to be said for tedium. It give you something to (try to) avoid. Ditto that philosophy for ID-by-use and sticky curses.

I'd support a return to the stat-restoration potions, but in lieu of that, how about tweaking the current system so that is doesn't guarantee restoration. Maybe a % chance based on CL, or just restore 1 point of one drained stat upon level-up? Just throwing it out there.

[Shockbolt]

Strongly disagree. I like randarts better - they're complete unknowns, and discovering their abilities is fun.

That said, some of the new ego items in v4 could almost be considered randarts.

Then we have opposite opinions of what an artifact is or should be. To me it's a special (one of a kind) item that in most cases come with an unique name and/or has a legend tied to it. A mighty crossbow of might of the bear (3d8) (+10,+10) is no artifact in my eyes, simply "just" a powerful item.

[Therem Harth]

Strongly disagree. I like randarts better - they're complete unknowns, and discovering their abilities is fun.

That said, some of the new ego items in v4 could almost be considered randarts.

[Shockbolt]

I've played randarts a few times, I like the idea behind it, it's more fun IMO but at the same time you don't always get what you expect from a standart game, so I would rather play without artifacts at all.

The only fun that comes with finding artifacts is being able to equip/use items associated with Middle-earth, for example Glamdring or Phial of Galadriel, unique items.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Restoration potions were never a significant drain on the player's gold. If you want him to really have to ration his money, then charge more for C*W potions. And I don't know about you, but I find far more tension in modern stat drain, since I can't just go back to town and then townscum for a few thousand turns to get my stats restored. Of course in the early game the drained stats go away pretty quickly, but what about when the next level is several hundred thousand experience points away?

Meh. Play randarts sometime, go the entire game without once finding a usable source of protection from confusion. The game's eminently winnable without it (and without blindness protection too).

Warriors are at a disadvantage, sure, but not IMO due to a healing potion shortage; more due to lack of versatility compared to the spellcasters. If you're careful with your use of healing potions you ought to be able to win with a warrior.

At deeper levels, restoring is not much of an issue, rods of restoration start to drop and the fear is overwith, along with items that hold life, and weapons and artifacts with sustains.

I've played randarts a few times, I like the idea behind it, it's more fun IMO but at the same time you don't always get what you expect from a standart game, so I would rather play without artifacts at all. Constant forms of confusion and chugging potions is aggravating to me, it's not dangerous really either after you carry around about 20 potions of ccw, you end up just healing yourself basicaly, and confusion is gone.

I certainly agree that warriors arent versitile enough, or balanced, in the first 25 levels of the game the kick everybodys but in no time, i can dive from level 10 to level 25 and clear every level, before going back to town, or it gets dangerous. On the other hand from about level 30 onwards they are sitting ducks, CCW potions start becoming less useful means of healing, warrior almost has to play very stealthy.

[Shockbolt]

The whole point of stat drain was that it was genuinely dangerous to the player (a mage with drained INT wasn't nearly as powerful), so the player was expected to prevent their stats from being drained if they wanted to live. IMHO it is much more fun for stat draining to be dangerous and take on the responsibility to not have my stats drained in the first place. And you had to use slots in the home and in your inventory/equipment to make sure your key stats couldn't be drained or you had something to restore them.

I guess in one person's viewpoint, it is strategy. In another person's viewpoint, it is tedium.

I totally agree with the above, experience/life force and stats should be affected by npc/trap drain effects, forcing the player to be prepared with a stock of potions to restore any drained stats or drained experience. Where's the fun in playing if you can only get killed?

[nppangband]

It did increase player options, which in turn counts as "harder to balance". Class restrictions are similar thing as with restore stat potions. Remove option and player is forced to choose other things.

The whole point of stat drain was that it was genuinely dangerous to the player (a mage with drained INT wasn't nearly as powerful), so the player was expected to prevent their stats from being drained if they wanted to live. IMHO it is much more fun for stat draining to be dangerous and take on the responsibility to not have my stats drained in the first place. And you had to use slots in the home and in your inventory/equipment to make sure your key stats couldn't be drained or you had something to restore them.

I guess in one person's viewpoint, it is strategy. In another person's viewpoint, it is tedium.

[Timo Pietilä]

Do you feel that the combinations that were restricted were overpowered? I can't see how removing those restrictions could otherwise break game balance except by making the game voluntarily harder, which is hardly an issue.

Stop.

Balanced does not mean "overpowered" or "hard". It's balanced when it is fun.

Correct question is "Do you feel that the combinations that were restricted were less fun? (in long run)"

One thing original game did was restricted paladin for humans only. Dwarf/High-elf paladin is quite boring. But OTOH so is human paladins too, so I can't say if that change did anything for that.

It did increase player options, which in turn counts as "harder to balance". Class restrictions are similar thing as with restore stat potions. Remove option and player is forced to choose other things. You don't have to deal with restore potion rarities and store appearance if there is no potions.

So I see point in Malak Darkhunter post. I think it is very minor thing though, and I think it is more fun to be able to choose anything I want.

I think what did break something was introduction of Kobold race. Inherent rPoison resist which was supposed to be difficult to get and good overall skills and stats. I still haven't played it ...much at least... because I see it as intruder and overpowered race. It also isn't Tolkien race (arguably h-Troll isn't either, but at least there were trolls in Tolkien world).

[Derakon]

One area I think broke game balance is the removal of race/class restrictions, a long time ago during Robert Ruhlemans maintainership.

Do you feel that the combinations that were restricted were overpowered? I can't see how removing those restrictions could otherwise break game balance except by making the game voluntarily harder, which is hardly an issue.

Also blows per round being easier for begining players to just wield that dagger or whip, and do more damage round total obliterating the first few levels of monsters, you can wield a dagger get 3 blows per round at about 18 ponts of damage with high strength or dex, VS 1 blow per round doing 10 points of damgae wielding a longsword, seems unbalanced.

Getting lots of blows per round right out the gate has been an issue for a very long time, pretty much ever since the autoroller was introduced. Anyway, the overall issue of light weapons overpowering heavy ones in the early game has been discussed to death elsewhere.

There have been a lot of new items introduced to the game that makes game easier to survive and dive deeper more quickly

No argument there.

, stat draining is no longer a fear, along with stat restoration with level gain, should move back to old system with restore potions. Make player spend his gold.

Restoration potions were never a significant drain on the player's gold. If you want him to really have to ration his money, then charge more for C*W potions. And I don't know about you, but I find far more tension in modern stat drain, since I can't just go back to town and then townscum for a few thousand turns to get my stats restored. Of course in the early game the drained stats go away pretty quickly, but what about when the next level is several hundred thousand experience points away?

To many monsters through confusion around before confusion resistance is found.

Meh. Play randarts sometime, go the entire game without once finding a usable source of protection from confusion. The game's eminently winnable without it (and without blindness protection too).

Not enough healing potions availiable in final levels of the game, nor do stores sell as often the higher level you go, warriors are at a disadvantage.

Warriors are at a disadvantage, sure, but not IMO due to a healing potion shortage; more due to lack of versatility compared to the spellcasters. If you're careful with your use of healing potions you ought to be able to win with a warrior.

[Malak Darkhunter]

One area I think broke game balance is the removal of race/class restrictions, a long time ago during Robert Ruhlemans maintainership.

Also blows per round being easier for begining players to just wield that dagger or whip, and do more damage round total obliterating the first few levels of monsters, you can wield a dagger get 3 blows per round at about 18 ponts of damage with high strength or dex, VS 1 blow per round doing 10 points of damgae wielding a longsword, seems unbalanced.

There have been a lot of new items introduced to the game that makes game easier to survive and dive deeper more quickly, stat draining is no longer a fear, along with stat restoration with level gain, should move back to old system with restore potions. Make player spend his gold.

To many monsters through confusion around before confusion resistance is found.

Not enough healing potions availiable in final levels of the game, nor do stores sell as often the higher level you go, warriors are at a disadvantage.

Overall I like 2.7.8 's game balance, and feel but that's just my opinion.

[buzzkill]

In DaJ, there's no reason to have to press 'p' to purchase. Just select the item twice in a row to purchase it. 'aa' buys item 'a'. It's simple and less finger travel.

[artes]

One area that I think has become marginally worse in later versions is shops.

One annoying thing about shops is the interface when buying, when one first chooses the item and then gives the buy command. This is not bad in itself, but it runs contrary to the normal way to give commands. E.g. when dropping an item one first gives the command and then chooses the item. Example:

Commands for buying item a: a p
Commands for dropping item a: d a

This inconsequency makes shopping a confusing experience, when I often choose the wrong item by mistake.

[artes]

In my Rogue-like there is a Perception skill but no Search skill, because I think Search is redundant. If someone wants to search, they can just rest at a place and hope to find something with Perception.

[Timo Pietilä]

It seems to me that traps should be added to a level after everything else has been generated, and go in squares around doorways, staircases and floor objects. Traps should be protecting something, not just randomly stuck in the middle of the floor.

An appropriate link: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html

[buzzkill]

So perhaps the trap placement algorithm needs to be part of the solution.

I doubt Angband is intelligent enough to accomplish this effectively. I fear it will lead to entirely predictable trap placement, just as we currently have entirely predictable secret doors.

Re secret doors: If any end of a corridor has a secret door, then both ends of that corridor and any intersecting corridors should end in secret doors. This would effectively create 'secret' areas of the dungeon which is what secret doors should be all about, no?

...edit... and eliminate 'predictable' secret doors at the ends of long corridors, unless of course you had previously found a non-obvious secret door to find your way into the 'secret' corridor in the first place.