Future of Angband development

[d_m]

I totally agree with Timo's description of the problem, and I think several of the proposed solutions would work very well.

I would happily merge any of these strategies into V4 if someone implemented one of them. With strong consensus I'd merge any of them into V if they played well in V4 first.

I've been very busy this fall so I will make no promises, but I think it's an area where we could quickly see some drastic improvement.

[Timo Pietilä]

I'm not sure that searching is really a salvageable mechanic. Any character will stop using the unreliable method as soon as they have something reliable.

As I said in my original post, remove the reliable method. Extend search as skill to LoS.

With poor searching skill you might still stumble upon some traps, but that would be acceptable price of that skill being poor one. Helmet of seeing and amulets of searching would have valuable flag then.

With light radius of three you have at least three turns before you step on one, which means that search skill of 50% should have quite good probability to detect the trap before you actually step on one. This also would mean that you probably step on traps in early levels quite a lot more.

[Timo Pietilä]

Take it to the V4 forum!

[EDIT: or to be more verbose: this thread seems to suggest replacing a long-established V mechanic with a whole bunch of untested thought-up-on-the-spur-of-the-moment alternatives: I thought that was exactly what we were trying to get away from.]

A.

This is for debating what should we do for the vanilla, not for a variant based on vanilla.

I have brought up one thing that could be fixed. I haven't yet seen any other posts about same thing.

Then if there is some sort of consensus that this is something that could/should be done, then test it in v4, I'm not against that.

[Antoine]

That sounds a better process.

Hey, if we want searching to be an interesting thing, then we need there to be more pattern about where traps are found.

In the extreme, if every space is equally likely to conceal a trap, the player will end up searching at every move (boring) or never searching (unsatisfactory).

it would be better if you could look at the dungeon layout and guess where a trap is likely to be. This is already true for vaults, but not so much, I think, for rooms/corridors.

So perhaps the trap placement algorithm needs to be part of the solution.

A.

[Nomad]

it would be better if you could look at the dungeon layout and guess where a trap is likely to be. This is already true for vaults, but not so much, I think, for rooms/corridors.

So perhaps the trap placement algorithm needs to be part of the solution.

A.

It seems to me that traps should be added to a level after everything else has been generated, and go in squares around doorways, staircases and floor objects. Traps should be protecting something, not just randomly stuck in the middle of the floor.

[ghengiz]

It seems to me that traps should be added to a level after everything else has been generated, and go in squares around doorways, staircases and floor objects. Traps should be protecting something, not just randomly stuck in the middle of the floor.

yeah, it sounds about right

[buzzkill]

So perhaps the trap placement algorithm needs to be part of the solution.

I doubt Angband is intelligent enough to accomplish this effectively. I fear it will lead to entirely predictable trap placement, just as we currently have entirely predictable secret doors.

Re secret doors: If any end of a corridor has a secret door, then both ends of that corridor and any intersecting corridors should end in secret doors. This would effectively create 'secret' areas of the dungeon which is what secret doors should be all about, no?

...edit... and eliminate 'predictable' secret doors at the ends of long corridors, unless of course you had previously found a non-obvious secret door to find your way into the 'secret' corridor in the first place.

[Timo Pietilä]

It seems to me that traps should be added to a level after everything else has been generated, and go in squares around doorways, staircases and floor objects. Traps should be protecting something, not just randomly stuck in the middle of the floor.

An appropriate link: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html

[artes]

In my Rogue-like there is a Perception skill but no Search skill, because I think Search is redundant. If someone wants to search, they can just rest at a place and hope to find something with Perception.

[artes]

One area that I think has become marginally worse in later versions is shops.

One annoying thing about shops is the interface when buying, when one first chooses the item and then gives the buy command. This is not bad in itself, but it runs contrary to the normal way to give commands. E.g. when dropping an item one first gives the command and then chooses the item. Example:

Commands for buying item a: a p
Commands for dropping item a: d a

This inconsequency makes shopping a confusing experience, when I often choose the wrong item by mistake.

[buzzkill]

In DaJ, there's no reason to have to press 'p' to purchase. Just select the item twice in a row to purchase it. 'aa' buys item 'a'. It's simple and less finger travel.

[Malak Darkhunter]

One area I think broke game balance is the removal of race/class restrictions, a long time ago during Robert Ruhlemans maintainership.

Also blows per round being easier for begining players to just wield that dagger or whip, and do more damage round total obliterating the first few levels of monsters, you can wield a dagger get 3 blows per round at about 18 ponts of damage with high strength or dex, VS 1 blow per round doing 10 points of damgae wielding a longsword, seems unbalanced.

There have been a lot of new items introduced to the game that makes game easier to survive and dive deeper more quickly, stat draining is no longer a fear, along with stat restoration with level gain, should move back to old system with restore potions. Make player spend his gold.

To many monsters through confusion around before confusion resistance is found.

Not enough healing potions availiable in final levels of the game, nor do stores sell as often the higher level you go, warriors are at a disadvantage.

Overall I like 2.7.8 's game balance, and feel but that's just my opinion.

[Derakon]

One area I think broke game balance is the removal of race/class restrictions, a long time ago during Robert Ruhlemans maintainership.

Do you feel that the combinations that were restricted were overpowered? I can't see how removing those restrictions could otherwise break game balance except by making the game voluntarily harder, which is hardly an issue.

Also blows per round being easier for begining players to just wield that dagger or whip, and do more damage round total obliterating the first few levels of monsters, you can wield a dagger get 3 blows per round at about 18 ponts of damage with high strength or dex, VS 1 blow per round doing 10 points of damgae wielding a longsword, seems unbalanced.

Getting lots of blows per round right out the gate has been an issue for a very long time, pretty much ever since the autoroller was introduced. Anyway, the overall issue of light weapons overpowering heavy ones in the early game has been discussed to death elsewhere.

There have been a lot of new items introduced to the game that makes game easier to survive and dive deeper more quickly

No argument there.

, stat draining is no longer a fear, along with stat restoration with level gain, should move back to old system with restore potions. Make player spend his gold.

Restoration potions were never a significant drain on the player's gold. If you want him to really have to ration his money, then charge more for C*W potions. And I don't know about you, but I find far more tension in modern stat drain, since I can't just go back to town and then townscum for a few thousand turns to get my stats restored. Of course in the early game the drained stats go away pretty quickly, but what about when the next level is several hundred thousand experience points away?

To many monsters through confusion around before confusion resistance is found.

Meh. Play randarts sometime, go the entire game without once finding a usable source of protection from confusion. The game's eminently winnable without it (and without blindness protection too).

Not enough healing potions availiable in final levels of the game, nor do stores sell as often the higher level you go, warriors are at a disadvantage.

Warriors are at a disadvantage, sure, but not IMO due to a healing potion shortage; more due to lack of versatility compared to the spellcasters. If you're careful with your use of healing potions you ought to be able to win with a warrior.

[Timo Pietilä]

Do you feel that the combinations that were restricted were overpowered? I can't see how removing those restrictions could otherwise break game balance except by making the game voluntarily harder, which is hardly an issue.

Stop.

Balanced does not mean "overpowered" or "hard". It's balanced when it is fun.

Correct question is "Do you feel that the combinations that were restricted were less fun? (in long run)"

One thing original game did was restricted paladin for humans only. Dwarf/High-elf paladin is quite boring. But OTOH so is human paladins too, so I can't say if that change did anything for that.

It did increase player options, which in turn counts as "harder to balance". Class restrictions are similar thing as with restore stat potions. Remove option and player is forced to choose other things. You don't have to deal with restore potion rarities and store appearance if there is no potions.

So I see point in Malak Darkhunter post. I think it is very minor thing though, and I think it is more fun to be able to choose anything I want.

I think what did break something was introduction of Kobold race. Inherent rPoison resist which was supposed to be difficult to get and good overall skills and stats. I still haven't played it ...much at least... because I see it as intruder and overpowered race. It also isn't Tolkien race (arguably h-Troll isn't either, but at least there were trolls in Tolkien world).

[nppangband]

It did increase player options, which in turn counts as "harder to balance". Class restrictions are similar thing as with restore stat potions. Remove option and player is forced to choose other things.

The whole point of stat drain was that it was genuinely dangerous to the player (a mage with drained INT wasn't nearly as powerful), so the player was expected to prevent their stats from being drained if they wanted to live. IMHO it is much more fun for stat draining to be dangerous and take on the responsibility to not have my stats drained in the first place. And you had to use slots in the home and in your inventory/equipment to make sure your key stats couldn't be drained or you had something to restore them.

I guess in one person's viewpoint, it is strategy. In another person's viewpoint, it is tedium.