New pit types

[Nomad]

So, I've had a go at designing some new types of pits and nests to add a bit of variety to the first half of the dungeon. The attached zip file has the amended pits.txt and limits.txt files if anyone wants to give them a try.

Playtesting and feedback would be much appreciated: too shallow, too deep, too much or too little reward for the risk level? I've been stair-scumming a lot in my test games to find the things, so the figures I've chosen for the average depths are a bit of a shot in the dark.

There are four new types of pit added:

* DL 15 - Kobolds
* DL 20 - Spellcasters (apprentices and kobold/orc/dark elf mages)
* DL 25 - Naga
* DL 30 - Dark elves

And four types of nests:

* DL 30 - Creepy crawlies (centipedes, killer beetles, spiders excluding phase/drider/aranea)
* DL 40 - Minor demons (excluding bodaks and death quasits)
* DL 50 - Serpents (snakes, naga, low-end hydra)
* DL 55 - Lesser undead (skeletons, zombies, low-end wraiths)

I think I corrected for the more bizarre results I got in testing, but if any monsters show up that seem like they shouldn't have been included, let me know.

[fizzix]

So, I've had a go at designing some new types of pits and nests to add a bit of variety to the first half of the dungeon. The attached zip file has the amended pits.txt and limits.txt files if anyone wants to give them a try.

Playtesting and feedback would be much appreciated: too shallow, too deep, too much or too little reward for the risk level? I've been stair-scumming a lot in my test games to find the things, so the figures I've chosen for the average depths are a bit of a shot in the dark.

There are four new types of pit added:

* DL 15 - Kobolds
* DL 20 - Spellcasters (apprentices and kobold/orc/dark elf mages)
* DL 25 - Naga
* DL 30 - Dark elves

And four types of nests:

* DL 30 - Creepy crawlies (centipedes, killer beetles, spiders excluding phase/drider/aranea)
* DL 40 - Minor demons (excluding bodaks and death quasits)
* DL 50 - Serpents (snakes, naga, low-end hydra)
* DL 55 - Lesser undead (skeletons, zombies, low-end wraiths)

I think I corrected for the more bizarre results I got in testing, but if any monsters show up that seem like they shouldn't have been included, let me know.

these look like good ideas, but I think the nests can be set to earlier levels. Of course that depends on what you mean by 'low-end wraith'. Does it include nether wraiths?

Minor demons should be a pit, not a nest, right?

[Remuz]

* DL 50 - Serpents (snakes, naga, low-end hydra)

Maybe I am missing something here, but this does not seem too terrifying... why have this one so low in the dungeon?

[Nomad]

these look like good ideas, but I think the nests can be set to earlier levels. Of course that depends on what you mean by 'low-end wraith'. Does it include nether wraiths?

Nope. I excluded anything with BO_NETH, so that leaves forest, white, grave, barrow and grey. Which I too thought would make it pretty easy to clear at shallower levels, until I realised I'd overlooked all the mummified trolls and skeleton ettins that were going to be in there.

...And I've also just now realised that, though I never saw one, it's technically possible to get a hand druj, since it turns out that unlike the other druj types they don't have BO_NETH. Erm. I should probably fix that...

Minor demons should be a pit, not a nest, right?

I think I put them as a nest because most of them don't leave drops, and it seemed neater to make the distinction between nests having treasures on the floor and pits not. But the code does allow for pits with treasure, so it's pretty trivial to change if you think a pit makes more sense.

* DL 50 - Serpents (snakes, naga, low-end hydra)

Maybe I am missing something here, but this does not seem too terrifying... why have this one so low in the dungeon?

Yeah, that one's possibly too deep now. I was a bit conservative with the average depths, because wherever they're placed they tend to start showing up about ten levels earlier. I had the serpents placed much shallower at first and then got pretty heavily stomped by the hordes of hydra and spirit nagas.

In general, when I was first testing, I found I had to move nearly all of my placements deeper because I severely underestimated how nasty it would be when monsters that are easy to kill one-on-one showed up in large groups. I've probably swung too far in the opposite direction now, so it's likely to take some tweaking to get it right.

I could definitely use some feedback on what these are like to clear in 'natural' games. So far I've been testing by level scumming and repeatedly travelling up and down the dungeon, so it's hard to tell how much my character is over/underpowered for the dlevel.

[buzzkill]

When pits/nests are first encountered they should be *hard* if not impossible to clear. I rather they show up too early than too late. Even at DL15 most any player should have a way or two to avoid them if it's their wish.

[jens]

When pits/nests are first encountered they should be *hard* if not impossible to clear. I rather they show up too early than too late. Even at DL15 most any player should have a way or two to avoid them if it's their wish.

I definitely agree with this :-)

[Nomad]

When pits/nests are first encountered they should be *hard* if not impossible to clear. I rather they show up too early than too late. Even at DL15 most any player should have a way or two to avoid them if it's their wish.

Fair enough. Here's a version with the nest types all dropped ten levels. (I did get rid of the hand druj loophole, though.) And minor demons are now a pit instead of a nest.

[fizzix]

Fair enough. Here's a version with the nest types all dropped ten levels. (I did get rid of the hand druj loophole, though.) And minor demons are now a pit instead of a nest.

To be fair, some of the standard pits could probably be moved up as well. Maybe 5 levels up for all the standard pits.

object allocation is too high for the centipede pit. It should be 1/30 or less. It's certainly easier to clear out this pit than a jelly pit.

Lesser undead pits could probably still be moved up earlier, maybe dlevel 25-30 or so. They seem easier than orc pits.

One issue is that these pits are early level pits where they won't show up all that often anyway. I think some late game pits might help a lot. A human pit filled with enchantresses, demonologists, necromancers, death knights, berserkers, master mystics, knight templars, patriarchs, etc. would be a very "nice" deep level pit.

I still really really want to remove Qs from animal nests...

[Netbrian]

I still really really want to remove Qs from animal nests...

The obvious solution is quylthulg pits.

[Nomad]

object allocation is too high for the centipede pit. It should be 1/30 or less. It's certainly easier to clear out this pit than a jelly pit.

Ack, yeah, well spotted. That was definitely supposed to be 30; I must have altered the wrong line at some stage.

One issue is that these pits are early level pits where they won't show up all that often anyway. I think some late game pits might help a lot. A human pit filled with enchantresses, demonologists, necromancers, death knights, berserkers, master mystics, knight templars, patriarchs, etc. would be a very "nice" deep level pit.

I did mess around with some attempts at human pits, but trying to base the inclusions and exclusions on spell flags tends to give you some pretty random combinations. But I guess if you just want a general late game 'lots of nasty spellcasters' pit, that would probably work. (The question is probably whether anyone would actually bother trying to clear it. I'd run a mile.)

I still really really want to remove Qs from animal nests...

Now it's been moved to the edit files, you can just use s:BLINK to exclude creatures capable of using phase door from the nest generation:

N:12:Animals
R:2
A:1:50
O:10
F:ANIMAL
s:BLINK

That should do the job.

[CJNyfalt]

Suggestions:
- Anthill as a beginner pit.
- Eye pit. A room full of eyes, creepy.
- Birds nest. Directed by Alfred Hitchcock.

[Nomad]

Suggestions:
- Anthill as a beginner pit.
- Eye pit. A room full of eyes, creepy.
- Birds nest. Directed by Alfred Hitchcock.

I did try an ants' nest. Trouble is, some of them have the 'trample weaker monsters' ability, so by the time I actually got to the nest, there weren't very many ants left inside it. I also tested both bat and bird pits; they worked well enough, but I thought they were a bit boring to clear.

Eyes could be an interesting experiment though. Eh, why not: version three, now with completely untested eye pits! I have no idea how those will turn out, so I've stuck 'em at level 30 for the moment. Undead beholders and hive mothers are excluded, but you might get ordinary beholders in there.

[Nomad]

Okay, I scummed for an eye pit, and they seem like they could be quite fun. All the eyes that can actually move end up stuck in the middle behind a wall of non-moving ones, but they can still cast spells from there. The gauths do have a tendency to wipe out the weaker eyes with cold balls, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing, because it means they can free themselves and the beholders to come after you. I think eye pits have potential.

[Magnate]

Okay, I scummed for an eye pit, and they seem like they could be quite fun. All the eyes that can actually move end up stuck in the middle behind a wall of non-moving ones, but they can still cast spells from there. The gauths do have a tendency to wipe out the weaker eyes with cold balls, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing, because it means they can free themselves and the beholders to come after you. I think eye pits have potential.

I think these new pits sound fantastic, and I'm seriously considering delaying 3.3 to include them ... ;-) .... but you were right in your other post - they will need significant playtesting. Ho hum. I promise they'll be in the first nightly after release.

[fizzix]

I did try an ants' nest. Trouble is, some of them have the 'trample weaker monsters' ability, so by the time I actually got to the nest, there weren't very many ants left inside it. I also tested both bat and bird pits; they worked well enough, but I thought they were a bit boring to clear.

That's pretty much what happens with horned reapers in Demon Pits.

You're right that lots of ants have KILL_BODY though, so it would be worse.