New level types (spoiler-y)

[scud]

This in OSX revision aff3f99f7a of 30 January...



Didn't try a Recall, but on quitting/reopening I'm back in town.

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Oops, just re-read earlier posts... initially I thought aff3f99f7a claimed to fix the issue.

[Philip]

Could you tell me what cavern levels do? Is it like O(yes, it is my favourite variant and it brought me to angband), where you have big rooms and lots of orcs, trolls, ogres and other uncivilized humanoids?

[d_m]

Could you tell me what cavern levels do? Is it like O(yes, it is my favourite variant and it brought me to angband), where you have big rooms and lots of orcs, trolls, ogres and other uncivilized humanoids?

The only thing I will say about cavern levels for now (until you see a few) is that they are rough-hewn, don't have distinct rooms and passages, and are irregular in shape.

[Taha]

And the caverns show up way too early and often, I had one on level 1 and several before 10. In about 20-25 levels (all before level 10) across three games, I have seen 4-5. It is really annoying to find completely unlit levels as a brand new character, that is supposed to come as you go down a few levels. I assume they are cavern levels anyway, they were all irregular not at all like normal levels.
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[d_m]

Sorry you didn't end up liking the caverns.

Seems like you got a bit unlucky... they are only supposed to show up around 10-12% of the time, so getting 4 in 20 levels is a bit more than I would expect (although obviously it can happen). Giving them a minimum depth is probably a good idea, although I would still probably have that be relatively shallow (e.g. dlvl 5 or so).

For that matter, you probably shouldn't be able to see a labyrinth on dlvl 1 either...

[Philip]

I've seen them. Slightly annoying and pretty much like normal dungeon, except for not being lighted. I just leave once I find stairs. Labyrinth does not work that way, because I know what there is. I still usually just head back.
Also, why are packs of novice warriors availible on dlevel 2(that's where they're shown as being), and in a recent nightly I still saw them with quite inventive names(squire, scout and such).
EDIT: BTW, anything about my idea? Maybe separate them from normal labyrinths somehow? The idea is post 15. I would also like the caverns to be slightly more flavoured(post 17).

[CunningGabe]

Also, why are packs of novice warriors availible on dlevel 2(that's where they're shown as being), and in a recent nightly I still saw them with quite inventive names(squire, scout and such).

Novice warriors will show up alone on DL2, in groups of 1-3 on DL3, 1-5 on DL4, etc. I implemented the FRIEND flag for enemies like this so that we wouldn't have duplicate entries in the monster list.

[Philip]

Thanks, cool idea. Also, what happened to the names, they were flavourful.

[Taha]

Sorry you didn't end up liking the caverns.

Seems like you got a bit unlucky... they are only supposed to show up around 10-12% of the time, so getting 4 in 20 levels is a bit more than I would expect (although obviously it can happen). Giving them a minimum depth is probably a good idea, although I would still probably have that be relatively shallow (e.g. dlvl 5 or so).

For that matter, you probably shouldn't be able to see a labyrinth on dlvl 1 either...

As it turns out, I also saw a labyrinth on dlvl 1. I'm not sure whether I like or dislike either one - as a brand new character it was just an annoying death or stair scum situation.

I would put the minimum depth around level 10 - those levels are fast anyway, but you should be ready to handle extra monsters / odd situations by then.
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[d_m]

Thanks, cool idea. Also, what happened to the names, they were flavourful.

Takkaria wasn't a fan of them, so the change was reverted.

I liked them also... maybe it's worth taking a poll on it.

[d_m]

I have an idea for labyrinths. They could start around dlevel 30 and have only two stairs, both far away from the player and next to each other. There could be a message: "A chill goes down your spine as you realize you will have to fight your way to safety." or something. You would not be able to teleport and the loot would be 20 or so levels OOD always generated excellent but the monsters would be similarly OOD. Teleport level or deep descent is allowed.
EDIT: Hint about posting. Always copy the whole message before posting or the system will eat your post without a way to recover it. The original post was longer and more obvious but oook logged me out meanwhile.

I thought about doing something like this. Here are the parts that I will probably try to do:

1. Make sure the stairs are relatively far from the player, and each other.

2. Generate OOD monsters/items (this already happens with items on labyrinths which are "hard" e.g. ones that are unlit and/or with permanent walls)

3. Use level feelings to give a flavored description of the level

I thought about trying to limit ones ability to phase/teleport/teleport-other/teleport-level (since if labyrinths ended up being hard people could just skip them). The thing I decided is that:

A. Teleport other needs to be addressed in general, not just in labyrinths (and in nightlies we are trying it as a bolt spell rather than beam). I think giving people no choice but to fight each monster in the order encountered isn't very fun/interesting.

B. Since these levels are small/dense, teleport/phase is actually pretty dangerous and teleport-other doesn't really get rid of an enemy for long

C. People can bail on any level they like via deep descent, teleport level--i think making labyrinths impossible to bail on in this way is not a great idea. I never loved the TOME2 quest levels where you couldn't leave until you killed all the monsters... it meant you either relied very heavily on spoilers or got killed because you had no idea what you'd face before you entered the level.

Anyway, sorry I didn't respond to your post earlier... those were my thoughts.

[d_m]

I've seen them. Slightly annoying and pretty much like normal dungeon, except for not being lighted. I just leave once I find stairs. Labyrinth does not work that way, because I know what there is. I still usually just head back.
Also, why are packs of novice warriors availible on dlevel 2(that's where they're shown as being), and in a recent nightly I still saw them with quite inventive names(squire, scout and such).
EDIT: BTW, anything about my idea? Maybe separate them from normal labyrinths somehow? The idea is post 15. I would also like the caverns to be slightly more flavoured(post 17).

As far as caverns, they are a work in progress, but I will probably not turn them into giant open levels (I would rather actually have a fourth kind of cave_builder function that builds those).

Lighting caverns is a problem I'm working on... having the entire cavern lit doesn't seem great. I think the short term answer is to make illumination work better in those situations, and the longterm answer might be to create light generating features (e.g. bonfires).

The big thing caverns need is better monster organization. I spent a bunch of time getting the level laid out properly, and now i need to spend some time actually considering what to put *in* the level.

Anyway, thanks for your feedback, everyone.

[Derakon]

I liked the new novice names too, for what it's worth.

[Derakon]

Having now played a few cavern levels, I agree that lighting is an issue, especially for warriors with their poor monster detection abilities. It's all too easy to get blindsided by monsters on the other end of a huge open room that you had no idea were there.

What's so bad about lighting the entire large room? Keeping in mind that doing so will wake up everything in it; it's definitely a mixed blessing. That said, I continue to strongly dislike dungeon generation algorithms that make for large rooms. The player is at a huge disadvantage in such situations.

[Taha]

Is there another type of level that is almost like a quest level? There is only really one way through (maybe with a few small rooms off the path), and no stairs except at the opposite end from where the player starts? Not quite like the cavern levels, since not so open, but clearly a single path from start to end once you have explored the whole level.

Are out of depth monsters / items more likely to be generated now too? In my last three games, I have found one of Law DSM and MHDSM before level 20, and a rod of fire balls on level three respectively. Each time I died by a lack of caution after being overpowered for a little while items; the most recent time to a basilisk, werebear and purple worm on level 21 - all out of depth and in a long (all the way across the map) hallway. It was on a level like I described above. Priests can't detect any of those, got trapped and portal failed.
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