Nightlies

[Magnate]

It's just one of several bad overpowerings.

We need a birth option to allow playing with the 3.0 artifacts.

No, you don't. You need to highlight the "bad overpowerings" and suggest alternatives.

Further to the previous thread about weak brands, the one on Paurnimmen will drop to x2 when these are implemented. Yes it's still good with a x2 brand, but that's ok. It reduces mana for five classes out of six, and it can always be made deeper and/or rarer if necessary.

[Derakon]

It reduces mana for five classes out of six, and it can always be made deeper and/or rarer if necessary.

3 out of 6, unless you've given priests and paladins the same glove restriction that the mage-types have.

[Magnate]

3 out of 6, unless you've given priests and paladins the same glove restriction that the mage-types have.

Doh. Yes, thank you.

[PowerDiver]

No, you don't. You need to highlight the "bad overpowerings" and suggest alternatives.

The game used to be reasonably balanced. For every item that used to be useless that you make useful, you need to take a different item that used to be useful and make it useless [or remove it].

For every artifact that had a frequency increase, you need to remove another artifact that was roughly equal.

For starters, remove every brand and bonus shot and bonus blow you added. The one exception is the fire brand on Cubragol is good as a replacement for branding activation, but that's about it. Remove unnecessary increases on the plusses of the thancs, and any increases to AC on anything. Deep monsters already do too little damage proportionally from melee compared to spells and breaths, and any change to make that less is bad for gameplay.

Timo: Magnate doesn't listen to me on this stuff. Please give your opinion on what you think of all of the changes to boost artifact powers.

[d_m]

So, this is not relevant to the artifact part of this thread, but I just wanted to say that we've finally pushed staging to master and so a whole host of bug fixes, refactors, etc. should be available.

This should fix many of the problems currently in the nightlies, including crashes, repeated messages, etc.

[Magnate]

The game used to be reasonably balanced. For every item that used to be useless that you make useful, you need to take a different item that used to be useful and make it useless [or remove it].

For every artifact that had a frequency increase, you need to remove another artifact that was roughly equal.

For starters, remove every brand and bonus shot and bonus blow you added. The one exception is the fire brand on Cubragol is good as a replacement for branding activation, but that's about it. Remove unnecessary increases on the plusses of the thancs, and any increases to AC on anything. Deep monsters already do too little damage proportionally from melee compared to spells and breaths, and any change to make that less is bad for gameplay.

Timo: Magnate doesn't listen to me on this stuff. Please give your opinion on what you think of all of the changes to boost artifact powers.

So you're basically saying "undo every change you made to make the useless artifacts not useless". No thanks. I think most people would prefer they stayed in, and were adjusted differently where necessary.

I don't buy your basic premise that for everything that's added, something must be taken away. I'm quite happy to discuss individual cases, but a blanket "I don't like what you did, so undo it" doesn't work for me. There were a lot of complaints about the disappointment of finding a supposedly "special" artifact at a point in the game when it was junk, and they have stopped.

I do accept that the game has become easier over the last few years (for many reasons, not just this one), and this will be addressed. At the risk of sounding like Tony Blair - "Forward, not back".

I will be going through the standarts again before 3.3 is released to make more use of multiple pvals - and this time I'm going to weaken Thorin and get away with it!!

[Timo Pietilä]

So you're basically saying "undo every change you made to make the useless artifacts not useless". No thanks. I think most people would prefer they stayed in, and were adjusted differently where necessary.

I don't buy your basic premise that for everything that's added, something must be taken away.

I will be going through the standarts again before 3.3 is released to make more use of multiple pvals - and this time I'm going to weaken Thorin and get away with it!!

If you just add and never remove then game just gets easier and easier and easier.

Main problems are off-weapon brands, shots and blows. IE. Haradrim and Paurnimmen. It doesn't matter when you see them they are overpowered. Get a big-dice extra blow weapon or Pain with off-weapon brand and you see what I mean. In Cubragol it doesn't matter that much because I had activation for ammo branding before. Bard slay dragon is a bit too powerful, but somehow feels right.

I would also remove Palantir and restore clairvoyance activation to Arkenstone. Palantir is not a lightsource, it is at best same as walking with TV to illuminate your way. No matter what you do to Palantir you need to do something to Arkenstone, its activation is now next to useless, even magic mapping in Star is better.

Thorin has been weakened already, don't change it any weaker.

Items to remove:

Palantir
Evenstar

Both are new additions and IMO not successful ones so they can go without anybody missing them much.

Change:

Paurnimmen -remove brand.
Haradrim - remove blows and shots, change pval from 1 to 2.
Hammerhand - remove to_dam and to_hit bonuses and aggravation, add FA (make it basically improved version of Crown of might, like Dor-Lomin is of Crown of magi)
Angrist - remove acid brand, speed bonus is more than enough
Belangil - change back to 2d4. 3d4 in dagger doesn't just make any sense
Arunruth - change name to Aranruth. That's how Tolkien wrote it.
Ringil - change kill_demon back to slay_demon. It is powerful enough without kill slay, remove blessed-flag. Priests need to think before using it.
Anduril - remove slay undead and sust STR (sustains are too easy to get now).
Doomcaller -remove slay demon (slay evil and cold brand are enough)
Aiglos - change back to Aeglos. Both are used, but main name is Aeglos for Spear of Gil-Galad, change kill_undead to slay_undead (or remove that slay).
Durin - STR-bonus and both brands are later additions. Remove at least one, fire maybe.
Eonwe - change dice back to 4d4, remove kill demon (this is major weapon without those)
Mundwine - remove slay demon (it has slay evil)
Wrath - remove poison brand
Thunderfist - change dice back to 3d6 (added CON -bonus is more than enough)
Aule - restore it back to war hammer. 9d3 instead of 18d1 (d1 doesn't make any sense to me, IMO it breaks whole concept of random damage). Remove tunnel and change acid_brand back to elec_brand.

The whole set has changed to more powerful, so that previously useful items, even endgame quality like Anarion are now pretty much completely useless (sustains are too easy to get). I have temptation to suggest removing speed from Fundin and Eowyn, but those two have no comparable items and are quite rare. They are almost identical as items: same dice, same pval, both provide speed, STR-boost, nether resist, slay evil and slay or kill undead. Maybe drop pval from 4 to 3?

Paur* could maybe all change to their old boring sets with small to_hit and to_dam bonuses and make them give small STR-bonus. Kind of weak gauntlets of power with resist. +3 to to_hit and to_dam, +2 to STR? I wouldn't miss them if they are removed completely, there are enough powerful artifact and ego gauntlets without them.

[PowerDiver]

Bard slay dragon is a bit too powerful, but somehow feels right.

It wasn't the bow that was the Smaug killer. It was the arrow. If the slay makes the artifact too powerful, and you and I at least think that it does, it should be removed.

[Magnate]

If you just add and never remove then game just gets easier and easier and easier.

Only if everything you add is positive. If you add positives and negatives in balance, it works out. Yes, my first set of changes were mostly positive - so now it's time for some balance.

Main problems are off-weapon brands, shots and blows. IE. Haradrim and Paurnimmen. It doesn't matter when you see them they are overpowered. Get a big-dice extra blow weapon or Pain with off-weapon brand and you see what I mean. In Cubragol it doesn't matter that much because I had activation for ammo branding before. Bard slay dragon is a bit too powerful, but somehow feels right.

Off-weapon brands/shots/blows are here to stay, so all advice on balancing them is helpful. Paurnimmen's brand will go down to x2 dam, which will make it slightly less useful than slay animal. Haradrim has already lost its extra shot, and only gives an extra blow now.

I would also remove Palantir and restore clairvoyance activation to Arkenstone. Palantir is not a lightsource, it is at best same as walking with TV to illuminate your way. No matter what you do to Palantir you need to do something to Arkenstone, its activation is now next to useless, even magic mapping in Star is better.

I don't really understand your problem with the Palantir. I'm happy to find a better activation for the Arkenstone, but I don't see any need to remove the Palantir.

Thorin has been weakened already, don't change it any weaker.

Has it? How? When? What did it have before?

Hammerhand - remove to_dam and to_hit bonuses and aggravation, add FA (make it basically improved version of Crown of might, like Dor-Lomin is of Crown of magi)

What? Dor-Lomin gives +4STR/DEX/CON, making it uber-Crown-of-Might. It's basically Hammerhand without aggravation and with telepathy. There's another "essential" endgame artifact that needs weakening to make things more interesting.

The issue of aggravation remains. Derakon's suggestion of a stealth malus don't really solve the problem: if you have one aggravating item, you can wear others with impunity, including any -stealth items you want. So this is essentially moot until the new curses work is done and we have ways other than aggravation to curse artifacts.

Belangil - change back to 2d4. 3d4 in dagger doesn't just make any sense

You mean like 9d6 on a glaive? Or 4d5 on a longsword? It makes no less sense than anything else.

Ringil - change kill_demon back to slay_demon. It is powerful enough without kill slay, remove blessed-flag. Priests need to think before using it.

Yes, I like this idea - I like anything that prevents items being no-brainers, and Ringil is currently a no-brainer. In fact I don't really have a problem with any of your changes - they all make good sense.

Aule - restore it back to war hammer. 9d3 instead of 18d1 (d1 doesn't make any sense to me, IMO it breaks whole concept of random damage). Remove tunnel and change acid_brand back to elec_brand.

Is there any lore which points to Aule being a digger? I don't know why it was changed (before my time), but clearly the change of brand and addition of tunnelling were because somebody thought it should be a digging item.

The dice are a different issue. I don't particularly mind changing Aule back to a warhammer, but I think it's worth reviewing whether we have great hammers at all. d1 indeed isn't random - but is that a problem? I don't think I have a strong view either way.

The whole set has changed to more powerful, so that previously useful items, even endgame quality like Anarion are now pretty much completely useless (sustains are too easy to get).

But don't blame artifacts for that. Sustains are easier to get because of egos of Preservation and Sustenance. Those are what nerfed Anarion, not other artifact changes.

I have temptation to suggest removing speed from Fundin and Eowyn, but those two have no comparable items and are quite rare. They are almost identical as items: same dice, same pval, both provide speed, STR-boost, nether resist, slay evil and slay or kill undead. Maybe drop pval from 4 to 3?

Happy to see these distinguished in some way. I don't recall Eowyn as being particularly fast, so maybe remove the speed from Eowyn but not from Fundin?

Paur* could maybe all change to their old boring sets with small to_hit and to_dam bonuses and make them give small STR-bonus. Kind of weak gauntlets of power with resist. +3 to to_hit and to_dam, +2 to STR? I wouldn't miss them if they are removed completely, there are enough powerful artifact and ego gauntlets without them.

Well, what I'd like to do is introduce the "artifact sets" concept that Sangband has, which means they start off pretty rubbish, but if you pair them with their corresponding 'thanc they get some additional bonus.

[Timo Pietilä]

I don't really understand your problem with the Palantir. I'm happy to find a better activation for the Arkenstone, but I don't see any need to remove the Palantir.

Palantir is out of character item. It is not lightsource, or anything else you should wear. At best it should be rod distinguished as orb. It also is pretty powerful (which is also just wrong, it should probably have all kinds of penalties, no boosts), so when you go for Sauron and Morgoth you always wear Hammerhand, Haradrim and Palantir. It should not be there. It just doesn't belong in Angband.

In fact I think we have lightsources reversed, Arkenstone was jewel with internal light, but it still was just a jewel with only dim internal light, Star is another jewel that had some light in it, only a bit more powerful (maybe), only phial was created as lightsource, and for that it was very very good at, breaking minds of Two Watchers who guarded Tower of Cirith Ungol where Frodo was captured in Mordor and it caused physical damage to Shelob, it's light described as lightning that refuses to go away.

Remember who created the phial: Galadriel. Galadriel was Noldor, relative to Feanor who created Silmarils.

Has it [Thorin]? How? When? What did it have before?

It had confusion resistance as part of chaos and later when confusion was separated from chaos as confusion resistance.

What? Dor-Lomin gives +4STR/DEX/CON, making it uber-Crown-of-Might. It's basically Hammerhand without aggravation and with telepathy. There's another "essential" endgame artifact that needs weakening to make things more interesting.

I hardly ever use Dor-Lomin. Dor-Lomin doesn't give sustains or combat bonuses or FA. It does give resist4 and telepathy, but those few times I have found it I have actually preferred Thranduil over it because resist blindness in Thranduil. If I have Gondor and don't need telepathy then that beats Dor-Lomin almost in every single case.

Hammerhand is currently item that nobody uses except in endgame where everybody uses it. There has been many cases where I have preferred Crowns of Might over Dor-Lomin in old days for sustains, Hammerhand just makes that no-brainer giving combat bonuses and nexus resist on top of that.

The issue of aggravation remains. Derakon's suggestion of a stealth malus don't really solve the problem: if you have one aggravating item, you can wear others with impunity, including any -stealth items you want. So this is essentially moot until the new curses work is done and we have ways other than aggravation to curse artifacts.

Aggravation is a switch case, either you never use item with it or you use multiple.

You mean like 9d6 on a glaive? Or 4d5 on a longsword? It makes no less sense than anything else.

Those two are high-level relatively heavy items with traditions, Belangil is light early item. Belangil is just plain overpowered with cold brand and high dice. With that dice it is as powerful as Aranruth.

Is there any lore which points to Aule being a digger? I don't know why it was changed (before my time), but clearly the change of brand and addition of tunnelling were because somebody thought it should be a digging item.

Aule is the Valar that made Dwarfs. Maybe that has been the reasoning. Aule is weapon of Valar, and doesn't really appear anywhere in Tolkien works.

But don't blame artifacts for that. Sustains are easier to get because of egos of Preservation and Sustenance. Those are what nerfed Anarion, not other artifact changes.

Actually presevation and sustenance don't have anything to do with that, you just have more items with sustains, like all stat-rings, amulets that give stats, sustains in Rings of Power which have for some reason become more common (or is it just my imagination?).

For artifacts there are more sustains now, just counted that 27 has become 40 (Evenstar (which nobody uses) +3, Gil-Galad +3, Anduril +1, Erebor +1, Haradrim +2 (everybody uses at endgame), Hammerhand +3 (everybody uses at endgame). Two that actually mean something are Haradrim and Hammerhand, because they are obvious choices for final fight.

Ego-items have changed less, 15-21, there is new item "Preservation" which counts +3, *slay* orc and giant give sustain +2, and cloak of magi is another new one +1.

Basic objects have changed most, 6 to 25: body- and soulkeeping rings is +6 (which nobody uses), sustenance another +6, WIS +1, CHR +1, Magi +1, Devotion +2, Trickery +1, Weaponmastery +2 is 8, and all stat-rings give sustain when they didn't previously do that (there were separate sustain rings for that, and there is no CHR-ring, but there were sustain CHR). +5-6 = -1

I think basic object changes affect most. With WIS amulet you don't need to worry about WIS-drainers, stat-rings make you immune to corresponding stat being drained, deeper high amulets give sustains etc. On old set you really wanted those sustains in artifacts and getting full set for Morgoth was actually quite hard, which in many cases did mean that you used Anarion in final battle, even that Thorin would have been better otherwise (ego-shields were crap back then until you go far enough back in time when you again had elvenkind shields but not aman cloaks). Or you collected a big bunch of mushrooms of restoration. You actually needed to explore dungeon stats drained.

Well, what I'd like to do is introduce the "artifact sets" concept that Sangband has, which means they start off pretty rubbish, but if you pair them with their corresponding 'thanc they get some additional bonus.

Maybe quite a bit later. For now something else.

[buzzkill]

Sustains probably are too common. They are something I usually don't worry too much because they seem to take care of themselves, and then some. I wonder if limiting each artifact or ego to a single sustain would help. They could certainly be toned down since having them all is not *really* necessary. Depending on your class/race, you could probably get by with only half covered.

Maybe change all sustains to 1/2 sustains, so you'd need a double sustain to be immune to stat drain. Having just a half would entitle you to a saving throw.

[Derakon]

I'm just gonna pop in here and say that you shouldn't remove Ringil's blessed flag. Ringil is the classic Angband uber-artifact, and removing the joy of finding it for just one of the classes is a real kick in the nuts. The entire priest blessed/blunt restriction thing needs to be rethought at some point; in the meantime, fiddling with blessed flags is not a good way to balance the game, because it only applies to one-sixth of the characters.

[Timo Pietilä]

I'm just gonna pop in here and say that you shouldn't remove Ringil's blessed flag. Ringil is the classic Angband uber-artifact, and removing the joy of finding it for just one of the classes is a real kick in the nuts. The entire priest blessed/blunt restriction thing needs to be rethought at some point; in the meantime, fiddling with blessed flags is not a good way to balance the game, because it only applies to one-sixth of the characters.

Ringil losing blessed restores it to older status. That's one of the "improvements" made lately (this one is JLE change, not Magnates).


Blessed or not blessed isn't really that difficult choice for priests, when clvl you still have all required spells to 0% failure, just few higher level spells have some failure.

[Antoine]

I do accept that the game has become easier over the last few years (for many reasons, not just this one), and this will be addressed. At the risk of sounding like Tony Blair - "Forward, not back".

Hi

You do sound like Tony Blair!

Is there an easy way for us to find out what key measures will make the game harder in the next couple of releases?

Thanks
A.

[Nick]

Remember who created the phial: Galadriel. Galadriel was Noldor, relative to Feanor who created Silmarils.

Moreover she made it by capturing the light of the star of Earendil, which was a Silmaril. I agree that it should be the uber-lightsource - it's just a question of whether there's too much Angband tradition behind the Phial, Star, Arkenstone setup.

Aule is the Valar that made Dwarfs. Maybe that has been the reasoning. Aule is weapon of Valar, and doesn't really appear anywhere in Tolkien works.

When Aule got in trouble from Iluvatar for creating the dwarves, he picked up a "great hammer" and was about to destroy them with it, but they cowered away, showing that Iluvatar had already given them independent thought. I'm guessing the Angband weapon was based on that hammer.