A take on melee combat (long)

[PowerDiver]

Have a look-see.

I guess I don't know what I am supposed to be looking at. I'm interested in EPB for str 3 or 23, dex 3 or 23, weight 30 or 300 with the str and dex mismatched. I want low-str high-dex to prefer weight 30, and high-str low-dex to prefer weight 300 [I guess 280 is better being the exact weight of a great flail], taking into account lesser dice on the lighter weapon but also str damage bonuses. That's the general consensus behind most of the complaints going back over the years in rgra when people complained about blows calculations.

[ewert]

PD, open spreadsheet, insert weapon weight at topleft, it shows bonus from str/dex to blows "inverted" (easier to read in the blows per round frameset) on the right individually.

As for the suggestion that 3/3 str/dex should not get one blow, I think you are going into very far from current and past vanilla flavor blows tables there. I even aimed the formulae on that spreadsheet to almost hit the current max blows with daggers for warriors ... And it IS blows per round, not HITS per round. If you want to go there, add stronger malus to hit based on weapon weight and too low str or dex (there is one for str currently in game, IIRC).

PS. Unless we change the whole combat system, at start no class nor any str/dex combo prefers 12+lbs weapons really. You just get too few hits usually to offset static +dmg bonuses. Yea it would be cool if even at start a 18/50 str 10 dex char would prefer a two hander instead of a short sword... though in thinking it through more, 18/50 str 10 dex would probably be better fit with a short sword, which he could get really good with, instead of a heavy weapon which he could get passable with ...

[Derakon]

Priests at the start cannot get more than 1 blow (or if they can, it comes at the cost of ruining their WIS), so they favor the biggest-dice weapon they can wield effectively. Same would go for mages if they used melee early on and could afford the extra weight, but they can't. Everyone else has the STR/DEX needed to get at least two blows, at least for the more popular races. I don't know if e.g. a gnomish rogue would be able to manage the STR requirement, leading to the amusing mental image of a small sneaky character with a gigantic weapon.

[Estie]

Priests at the start cannot get more than 1 blow (or if they can, it comes at the cost of ruining their WIS), so they favor the biggest-dice weapon they can wield effectively. Same would go for mages if they used melee early on and could afford the extra weight, but they can't. Everyone else has the STR/DEX needed to get at least two blows, at least for the more popular races. I don't know if e.g. a gnomish rogue would be able to manage the STR requirement, leading to the amusing mental image of a small sneaky character with a gigantic weapon.

This is true and feels wrong. As a hobbit rogue (high dex, low str(17!) I dont get more than 2 blows with a dagger. Id want at least 3 even with str 8. Wheras the troll with dex 15 gets 3+ blows easily. Str dominates blows early game, instead of dex. Str dominating melee _damage_ is fine, #attacks isnt.

[PowerDiver]

As for the suggestion that 3/3 str/dex should not get one blow, I think you are going into very far from current and past vanilla flavor blows tables there.

That seems to be an immediate consequence of getting weak players to prefer light weapons. Otherwise, better to use a MoD even with damage reduced by a factor near 10 than to use a dagger. I set the parameters of my formula so that str 3 could get 1 blow only with a dagger, which at least makes the distinction of 1 lb vs 3 lbs of interest in one obscure case. "You are too feeble to get a blow every round with such a heavy weapon."

If you posit that some weapons are too heavy to use at all, that's 0 blows per round. From there, if you try to do things somewhat smoothly, it makes sense to include a range of possibilities between 0 and 1.

[ewert]

I'm interested in EPB for str 3 or 23, dex 3 or 23, weight 30 or 300 with the str and dex mismatched.

By 23, did you mean 18/50?

Weight 30, str 23 +1.35 blows, dex 3 -1 blows, total 1.35 blows
Weight 30, str 3 -1 blows, dex 23 +1.83 blows, total 1.83 blows

Dexer with light weapon gets 35% more blows.

Weight 280 is moot, since neither str nor dex at 18/50 gives extra blows yet. You'd need 18/220 str to get max from str (+2.5 blows), and dex even at max wont give you max blows, nor will both at max net you full blows either.

Actually, as you liked to have a malus from low stats, I think it is too harsh what I made up at the moment in that formula. Granted these are quite silly extreme examples, but you really can't get any extra blows with heavy weapons at 18/50 - 3 combo. Which is probably just fine. =P Now if you meant 18/220 - combo then:

Weight 280, str 220 +2.5 blows, dex 3 -1 blows, total 2.5 blows
Weight 280, str 3 - 1 blows, dex 220 + 1.29 blows, total 1.29 blows

With weight 30 both get same total blows, since 18/220 is so overboard a 3.0lbs weapon that it maxes either str or dex to the +2.5 blows, while the other is -1 blows.

[PowerDiver]

By 23, did you mean 18/50?

Weight 30, str 23 +1.35 blows, dex 3 -1 blows, total 1.35 blows
Weight 30, str 3 -1 blows, dex 23 +1.83 blows, total 1.83 blows

Dexer with light weapon gets 35% more blows.

I assumed 23 was 18/50 when I looked at your spreadsheet.

Thanks for the example. I think I understand it now.