Fractional blows

[fizzix]

What's wrong with my old proposal that everybody uses the same formula, and then you modify by class? Then the same stats are required by everybody for max blows, but warriors simply get more blows at max.

I liked it...or at least I liked that part.

I also liked my BPR calculation, which was similar in that regard.

The way I liked it was -1 blows for mage/priest and +1 blows for warriors. There can be a minimum 1 blow, although, I don't mind the minimum blows being 0.5 or so for mages and priests.

[Derakon]

I'm fine with having different calculations for different classes; it represents variance in skill at using the weapons. However, it should be set up to favor the classes that use melee most, which it sounds like it isn't quite, at least at the moment.

[ewert]

TBH, that single str/dex table for all classes then +-1 would be very very simple solution ... Or a single str/dex/weight table that gives %ofClassMaxBlows, so mages and priests need max str/dex to be their best at melee, instead of being as good in melee until reaching their limit.

So, %MaxBlows based on str/dex/weight where 18/220 18/220 and 40lb. are "set points" for 100%. Then MaxBlows warrior = 6, mage/priest = 4, rest 5. Paladin at maxed str/dex wielding MoD gets 5 blows. He still gets just 5 blows with lighter weapons. Mage at 18/150 str/dex doesn't get max blows for his class, he gets %MaxBlows. Etc. With this epb based coding Magnate has done it is very nice to do:

ClassMinEpb / %MaxBlows = Epb
Warrior 16 / 0.75% = 21 epb
Mage 25 / 0.95% = 26 epb

Etc.

[ewert]

Oh and what would be really funky, was if these changes were done so that the relevant modifiers per class were in the p_class.txt edit file! Then the relevant stat modifiers that are in tables.h or wherever they were could be in stat_mod.txt file ... Things that could be tweaked without editing source code would be nice.

[PowerDiver]

My old suggestion is below. It does what I think it should do. If you are going to go to the effort to make MoD so much heavier than everything else, perhaps you shouldn't get as many blows with it. I don't like +/- 1. The difference between 1 and 2 is just too large IMO. The formula is inscrutable, but plug in some values for daggers and chaos blades and MoDs and see what you think, both around STR = DEX = 20 and STR = DEX = 40.

*******

All of the arithmetic is assume to be floating point. Stats range from 3 to 40, with 18/50 being 23 etc. I think 18/200 should count as 40 instead of 38, but that doesn't matter to this discussion. The formula is for mixed classes. Add or subtract 20% for warriors or 0% fail classes.

#blows = min { (5 + (STR^2)/40)/(3 + \sqrt(weapon weight in lbs))), (1 + (DEX/10)) }

I suppose alternatively 1 + (DEX^2)/275 makes sense if you believe in max relevant dex of about 18/150, but it would be nice for the formula to give at least 1.25 for str = dex = 3 with a dagger, so that when you subtract 20% you still get 1 blow.

[ewert]

The thing is though, currently MoD can be maxed by paladin/ranger but not warrior/rogue, which is assbackwards IMHO. Of course if we use %based differences in warrior/0%fail vs. the hybrids then the point is fixed.

I see one problem with your formula though, you need both stats evenly. A 18/200 str 18 dex warrior wielding a dagger would get only 1.2 blows per round. I think that is not a way to go. Also if we think thematics while we are at it, why not create a formula that rewards light weapons more from dex and heavy weapons more from str...

[ewert]

Str	Dex	Weight	Epb	Str	Dex	Str	Dex	Weight mods	
		25						8	8
3	3	25	99,8	1,18	0,82	1,18	0,82	8	8
4	4	25	99,53	2,79	1,94	2,79	1,94	8	8
5	5	25	99,09	5,44	3,79	5,44	3,79	8	8
6	6	25	98,43	9,4	6,55	9,4	6,55	8	8
7	7	25	97,53	14,93	10,39	14,93	10,39	8	8
8	8	25	96,36	22,28	15,52	22,28	15,52	8	8
9	9	25	94,89	31,73	22,09	31,73	22,09	8	8
10	10	25	93,13	43,52	30,3	43,52	30,3	8	8
11	11	25	91,05	57,92	40,33	57,92	40,33	8	8
12	12	25	88,69	75,2	52,36	75,2	52,36	8	8
13	13	25	86,04	95,61	66,58	95,61	66,58	8	8
14	14	25	83,16	119,42	83,15	119,42	83,15	8	8
15	15	25	80,05	146,88	102,27	146,88	102,27	8	8
16	16	25	76,78	178,26	124,12	178,26	124,12	8	8
17	17	25	73,38	213,81	148,88	213,81	148,88	8	8
18	18	25	69,9	253,81	176,73	253,81	176,73	8	8
19	19	25	66,39	298,5	207,85	298,5	207,85	8	8
20	20	25	62,87	348,16	242,42	348,16	242,42	8	8
21	21	25	59,39	403,03	280,64	403,03	280,64	8	8
22	22	25	55,99	463,39	322,67	463,39	322,67	8	8
23	23	25	52,68	529,5	368,7	529,5	368,7	8	8
24	24	25	49,49	601,61	418,91	601,61	418,91	8	8
25	25	25	46,44	679,99	473,48	679,99	473,48	8	8
26	26	25	43,53	764,9	532,61	764,9	532,61	8	8
27	27	25	40,77	856,59	596,45	856,59	596,45	8	8
28	28	25	38,16	955,34	665,21	955,34	665,21	8	8
29	29	25	35,71	1061,39	739,06	1061,39	739,06	8	8
30	30	25	33,41	1175,02	818,18	1175,02	818,18	8	8
31	31	25	31,26	1296,49	902,76	1296,49	902,76	8	8
32	32	25	29,25	1426,04	992,97	1426,04	992,97	8	8
33	33	25	27,38	1563,96	1089	1563,96	1089	8	8
34	34	25	25,63	1710,49	1191,03	1710,49	1191,03	8	8
35	35	25	24,01	1865,89	1299,24	1865,89	1299,24	8	8
36	36	25	22,5	2030,44	1413,82	2030,44	1413,82	8	8
37	37	25	21,1	2204,39	1534,94	2204,39	1534,94	8	8
38	38	25	20	2388	1662,79	2388	1662,79	8	8
39	39	25	20	2581,53	1797,55	2581,53	1797,55	8	8
40	40	25	20	2785,24	1939,39	2785,24	1939,39	8	8
									
Str = min(3333;str^3 / sqrt(weight+mod) / 4)									
Dex = MIN(3333;dex^3 / (weight+mod)									
Epb = MAX(20;100000/(1000+str+dex))

Messed around with a spreadsheet, and came up with this. Included the spreadsheet so you can test the different weight weapons, and also try different weight mods for str or dex to see how it effects the end results.

This one seems okay to me. And no need for tables. Just -20% from epb for warriors, +25% for 0% fail casters. You get 90% of max blows at 18/220 str+dex with MoD. Max blows with 25lbs weapon at 18/200 str+dex. Etc., check it out.

[buzzkill]

Also if we think thematics while we are at it, why not create a formula that rewards light weapons more from dex and heavy weapons more from str...

Thank you for that. Aside, I find a mage getting more than two blows at any point unrealistic.

[PowerDiver]

I see one problem with your formula though, you need both stats evenly. A 18/200 str 18 dex warrior wielding a dagger would get only 1.2 blows per round. I think that is not a way to go. Also if we think thematics while we are at it, why not create a formula that rewards light weapons more from dex and heavy weapons more from str...

The dex bound is 1 + dex/10 = 2.8 blows at dex=18. Add in 20% and you have 3.36 blows for a warrior.

One thing I was wondering was if it was worth setting things up so a max stat char could get 8 blows with a dagger or something like that, to really emphasize the difference. That might require O-style damage to make it sensible.

[PowerDiver]

Thank you for that. Aside, I find a mage getting more than two blows at any point unrealistic.

The mage is penalized by his low to-hit. 4 blows from a mage may well hit less than 2 blows from a warrior.

[edit] Keep in mind the fully equipped endgame mage is stronger and more dexterous than Bruce Lee at his peak.

[ewert]

The dex bound is 1 + dex/10 = 2.8 blows at dex=18. Add in 20% and you have 3.36 blows for a warrior.

One thing I was wondering was if it was worth setting things up so a max stat char could get 8 blows with a dagger or something like that, to really emphasize the difference. That might require O-style damage to make it sensible.

Meh, definitely misread and miscalculated, have been sick so I blame that.

I still don't like the min ( str hits, dex hits ) style of it at all though.

[ewert]

I'm thinking, if that formula that I posted is used, the str and dex modifiers could be set in p_class.txt for each class, so you can have rogues benefit loads with light weapons and dex, etc ...

Or not. Anyways, I think I will steal magnate's frac blows energy per blow code and implement that formula in my iVanilla version soon.

[ewert]

Looking through the code, I think we should forget totally about blows/round and go full on energy/blow.

Info about blows/round isn't in-game-factual, as you can't get 3.3 hits, you get 3 with some energy left over. Comparing damage with weapons gets very hard. Why not totally forget blows/round, show epb on char screen, show dmg/100 energy on weapon examination. Whether to use tables or formulae for epb aside, I really think a more straightforward epb codebase for melee would be better.

[PowerDiver]

I'm thinking, if that formula that I posted is used, the str and dex modifiers could be set in p_class.txt for each class, so you can have rogues benefit loads with light weapons and dex, etc ...

Chars with high dex and low str will prefer lighter weapons with my formula. My question is why would you want high-str low-dex rogues to use light weapons?

If you want to emphasize that starting rogues use light weapons, give them a significant str penalty. OTOH, I thought a main complaint in recent years has been the unreasonable superiority of light weapons to heavy weapons, so going out of your way to keep that seems misguided to me.

[Derakon]

Angband rogues are a bit weird anyway. They're roughly equivalent to paladins in many respects, being the melee-oriented mage-type of the game.