Competitions 89 and 90

[Timo Pietilä]

I just downloaded the starting files, and I gotta ask: would anyone ever start out a character with these stats? IMHO the second blow is way more important than the higher wisdom. At least both chars are crippled in the same way ..

You can't get second blow with dwarf, no matter how you put your stats, and for priest high WIS is more important than one blow anyway. Half-Troll could get extra blow, but it would mean very low WIS (max 17), which would hurt you later a lot. Especially if you play with RL fast game instead of artificial turncount tuning.

[bron]

You can't get second blow with dwarf, no matter how you put your stats, and for priest high WIS is more important than one blow anyway.

My bad; somehow I thought a dwarf could get 2 blows - don't know where my head was on that one.

That said however, I think that it makes the point even stronger. If the comp is supposed to be trying to explore the differences between a dwarf's better priestly abilities and a half-troll's better fighting ability, I don't think it make a good comparison to start out by crippling the half-troll's fighting ability.

And I completely disagree with your statement that the high WIS is more important than the second blow. A disagreement that (should have been) the whole point of the comp.

[Derakon]

I'm getting the impression this competition is biased in favor of the race that Timo was trying to prove makes for better priests. Using active turns makes the troll's regeneration nowhere near as significant a factor (normally it's one of the troll's best attributes), and biasing the troll against combat loses him the major starting advantage of being capable in melee, which makes diving much more feasible in the early game.

Of course, the use of non-preserve mode penalizes diving in general. I'm not sure what to think about that.

I'm not participating in the comp since I just finished playing a priest, mind. This does seem a bit odd though.

[Timo Pietilä]

I'm getting the impression this competition is biased in favor of the race that Timo was trying to prove makes for better priests. Using active turns makes the troll's regeneration nowhere near as significant a factor (normally it's one of the troll's best attributes),

When I talk about fast game I don't mean some artificial turncount calculation. I mean how it is perceived by the player, IE. resting takes practically no time which means active turns is only reasonable way to somehow count how fast you are.

and biasing the troll against combat loses him the major starting advantage of being capable in melee, which makes diving much more feasible in the early game.

I'm not at all convinced that one extra blow means anything. Especially when played with active turns (you can use OoD a lot more). Anyway, with maxed WIS troll still needs only a bit more STR to get second blow with light weapon, which is what my char currently has and I'm only at 1000'. With Dwarf I would still have only one blow (but more OoD to compensate).

In fact H-Troll regeneration do make a difference. I have fought some battles already that I couldn't have won with Dwarf. I really don't know which is better. H-Troll Priest seem to be better than I expected.

[Pete Mack]

Have reached drolem depth, now need to dive fast to get detection.
I do wish that you had spent a few points on CON, rather than completely maximizing STR and WIS.

[bron]

I'm not at all convinced that one extra blow means anything. Especially when played with active turns (you can use OoD a lot more).

I think that's really sort of the point. The lack of the second blow for the HT, and the choice of using active turns, both reduce some of the advantages that a HT could have had relative to a dwarf.

[Pete Mack]

Have reached drolem depth, now need to dive fast to get detection.
I do wish that you had spent a few points on CON, rather than completely maximizing STR and WIS.

I also wish I had some more dex.
Current weapon:
A Whip (+13, +10)(+2) {splendid}
+2 STR, CON, DEX
Grants the ability to see invisible things

3 blows/round
an additional 2 str and 9 dex would grant 4 blows

[Pete Mack]

Damn Draebor!
He just teleported me out of a "Reward is Worth It" vault; I lost Carlammas, Hammerhand, and the Phial, at least. (The history isn't showing lost artifacts that were never detected in Preserve off mode.)

Also lost some other stuff I don't care about. (Avavir, Camlost, etc)

[Magnate]

(The history isn't showing lost artifacts that were never detected in Preserve off mode.)

Hmmm, IMO that's a bug. Reported as #1167.

[Magnate]

Hmmm, IMO that's a bug. Reported as #1167.

In case anyone is reading this, it looks like the bug is with preserve mode itself, not with the knowledge menu. I've tested by using cheat_peek, and artifacts which are left on the floor unIDd are preserved when leaving the level, even if preserve is off.

Sorry Nick.

[Nick]

Sorry Nick.

Hey, Timo submitted the savefiles - I just miswrote the blurb.

[Timo Pietilä]

Have reached drolem depth, now need to dive fast to get detection.
I do wish that you had spent a few points on CON, rather than completely maximizing STR and WIS.

I realized that same for H-Troll priest. Dwarfs usually don't have this problem because of very high WIS and decent device skills which leads to with very low failure rate teleport other. However H-Troll priest seem to have stumbled in problems with device failures and not low enough failure rates with spells. Melee-power is not a problem for me, but dealing with escapes is.

I think H-Troll priests need to concentrate a bit different set of stats than Dwarf. Maybe STR 8, WIS 8, CON 8. Or maybe even STR 6, WIS 6, CON 12 for max diving capability. For Dwarf 12 points to WIS is no-brainer (it puts them to 18/50 which is one of the breakpoints), but there too maybe combination of 6,12,6 would have been wiser choice.

Well, this is a bit challenging anyway because of no-preserve, so consider those as YAChallengingPicks.

[Timo Pietilä]

In case anyone is reading this, it looks like the bug is with preserve mode itself, not with the knowledge menu. I've tested by using cheat_peek, and artifacts which are left on the floor unIDd are preserved when leaving the level, even if preserve is off.

Really? I wondered why item memory isn't showing any lost artifacts. If this is the case then preserve off isn't actually preserve off.

And I have been very careful about emptying vaults and even taking some unnecessary risks because of that: enchantress summoning Dracolisk and me failing three times in a row with TO was the scariest this far, and closest to death was entering into room full of impact hounds and failing three times with portal (stun really sucks, heavy stun even more, and I didn't have teleport scrolls at that point).

[PowerDiver]

I think H-Troll priests need to concentrate a bit different set of stats than Dwarf. Maybe STR 8, WIS 8, CON 8. Or maybe even STR 6, WIS 6, CON 12 for max diving capability. For Dwarf 12 points to WIS is no-brainer (it puts them to 18/50 which is one of the breakpoints), but there too maybe combination of 6,12,6 would have been wiser choice.

Part of diving is planning for the midgame. Even with a dwarf priest, I typically put 6 in each of str/wis/dex/con. That's what I used in my priestly ferric diving.

It is easier to raise int and wis than the other stats, due to potions of *enlightenment, so you still "expect" to max wis before any of the other stats.

For a comparison comp, I think the right choice is str 8, wis 6, dex 5, con 5. You've inspired me to play a half-troll with that start for a while.

[bron]

For a comparison comp, I think the right choice is str 8, wis 6, dex 5, con 5.

Yes, exactly my choice as well: 18/20 Str and 10 Dex to get the 2 blows, 18 Con (a cutoff point), and the rest into Wis.

I realize it is more than a little unorthodox, but any chance we could have this combination as a *third* choice for comparison?